11 Facing shadows breann jessica abby

Breann, Jessica & Abigail

Breann and Jessica were my very first mentor students. We met every week for a year, and in that time I got to witness them grow into the incredible healers that they are today. In our conversation, we share ways that we each deal with both personal and existential challenges, and how you can move through challenges that you might be facing during these times of great change.

Connect with Breann:
Instagram: @venusandchiron
OfferingsConnect with Jessica:
Instagram: @zen.lasagna@thegoodmedicinepodcast
Free consultationConnect with Abigail:
Facebook: @yourmindbodyfree
Instagram: @yourmindbodyfree
Schedule a free discovery call here
Learn more about my 6-month Mentorship Program here.


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Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:00) Hello, and welcome to the mind body free podcast. I’m your host, Abigail Moss. And today I’m speaking with both Breanne and Jessica and Breanne is an intuitive coach and channel. And Jessica is an embodiment coach and Astro guide. And I feel so lucky to get to talk with these women today and to have gotten to talk with them every week for a year when we were doing mentorship, a program together, these are the first women that I got to teach, and they’ve taught me so much as well.

Abby (00:00:35)  And I couldn’t be more. Happy and proud to get to speak with them here today. So welcome Breanne and Jessica. Thanks for being here.

Jessica (00:00:45)  Hello. It’s hard to not want to speak over it. I was like, how do I say hi yet? Am I going to

Abby (00:00:58) Maybe I’ll just kind of let you both fill in. Is there anything else you want to add to the introduction? Ryanne 

Breann (00:01:04) Sure let’s see about me. Maybe just that I have a podcast, Venus and Chiron.

Abby (00:01:11) Which is awesome.

Breann (00:01:13)So on that podcast, I talk a lot about intuition and psychic abilities and how to tune into those more and kind of just my experiences navigating that as a person who has been like, kind of from early childhood was very open.

Breann (00:01:30)And didn’t have the boundaries or the grounding and had to kind of learn in that way, how to develop my abilities. And then I feel like I also speak to people that, that is that and wanting to develop their abilities more. So feel free to check that out. I have an Instagram. I’m sure Abby will put it all down there.

Abby (00:01:51) Yep. I’ll be on the show notes, Venus and Chiron. And you interviewed me there not too long ago. And I had to say like you, both of you ladies, you put people at ease and it’s so lovely getting to be interviewed by you. Cause it just feels like. You know, seen, and heard and you ask insightful questions.

Abby (00:02:06) So highly recommend people check that out.

Breann (00:02:08) I love that episode because so many people have messaged me being like, oh my God, Abigail’s amazing. So it was a lot of fun. 

Jessica (00:02:16) I found it fascinating because I downloaded all of your episodes on my flight to Denver. And I know you so well, but that first episode I was hooked as though I never had met you before.

Jessica (00:02:28) And I was like, I just, I need to keep listening even though I was like, but I know, I know, but I was like, please don’t wait. So it’s just like, from an artistic point of view in terms of the podcast content itself. It’s just, it’s really, well-made

Abby (00:02:47) Obviously we love each other.

Abby (00:02:48) All right. Jessica, do you want to add anything to the intro? 

Jessica (00:02:51) Yes. So I have a podcast as well. Everyone does. It’s called the good medicine show. And on there, I just, I bring people on in the main point of the show is to hear people’s kind of stories of how they found their own unique medicine and to let them share that story and to kind of touch on any offerings they have or any wisdom that they want to bring to, to the hour and a bit.

Abby (00:03:17) And that’s it. It’s a beautiful podcast. And you also speak on a lot of podcasts and Jessica isn’t like in-demand guests. So definitely go and hear her wisdom and her insightful questions and the Good Medicine podcast. And you’re on Instagram as well.

Jessica (00:03:34) I’m @Zen.lasagna. The podcast Instagram is kind of late.

Jessica (00:03:39)  I’ve just been tired of being an online presence. So I’m actually not online right now, but in my, my bio at Sendell is on, you can find my email. If you want to reach out or book a consultation, that’s still open. I’m just not going to be responding to DMS, for the foreseeable future because the internet makes me tired

Abby (00:04:00) Detoxing for a while.

Abby (00:04:01) Awesome. And I’ll have that. There are links to the show notes for that too. And you know, having gotten to work with you, ladies, I can’t say enough good things about your gifts and you both have such unique gifts okay. And so much wisdom from your life and everything that you’ve overcome and learned over time.

Abby (00:04:23) So I highly recommend people check you both out. So thanks for being here. We have a couple of things where you thought about talking about today and maybe one of them we’ll, we’ll jump into in a little bit, but so a little bit of background is we’re all healers. And so when we met a little over a year ago, we did a mentorship for one year.

Abby (00:04:49) I got to mentor you guys. And you were already obviously healers for many lifetimes. So it was super, super fun getting to teach you ladies, because it was like, wow, you are very gifted. You do. And through that time, and, and now it’s like more and more insight and wisdom kind of unfolds. And we talked about, you know, a few things today of like, One was being in a Scorpio sun, I think, and lots of deep inner work happening and how you know it, Scorpio is kind of like the depths of the ocean, where there’s lots of dark spots, but also a ton of potential for transformation.

Abby (00:05:24) And I think maybe you mentioned that at first, Jessica, and then I started nodding very emphatically. Yes. I feel that you mentioned that to Breanne, so maybe we can touch on that first. What is the Scorpio time and how can we best face this time, our best move through this time with some grace. Okay.

Jessica (00:05:48) I will, I vote to give that one to Breanne?

Jessica (00:05:50)  Cause she’s just their wisdom around astrology she’s well cultivated.

Breann (00:05:55) So Scorpio season the way I perceive it as it’s that death and that rebirth. So there’s that huge transformation potential of going from. Life to death, to life again, in a new and different way. And I think one of my favorite ways to move through any astrological sign and Scorpio is no exception, especially here in North America is to watch the seasons.

Breann (00:06:22) I know when I’m when you’re feeling this intensity and this like because Scorpio is very intense like it’s like this intense depth of like emotion. There can be stagnancy and it’s, there can be a dredging up of a lot of old stuff that needs to be cleared so that you can be reborn in spring or even so that when we’re moving into the winter months, we’re not bringing that stuff with us.

Breann (00:06:48) Like when you look outside at the trees, they’re all losing their leaves and they’re shedding all of these layers so that they can direct their attention in the world during the winter and cultivate what they’re planning to create in the spring. So I find it helpful to always look to the seasons as guides and as medicine.

Breann (00:07:11) So going for walks and just talking to the trees and just noticing the earth and how it’s moving through Scorpio season can be a great mirror for how we can move through Scorpio season. I don’t know if that’s too vague.

Abby (00:07:25) No, that’s fabulous.

Jessica (00:07:28) What’s interesting. Are they the image and I don’t know, this might be because Halloween has passed and the pumpkins are now rotting but I like the idea of scrubber season being kind of that. It’s going to sound a little graphic, but like that spiritual rotting phase where it’s not even like the rot isn’t bad, but no, like insists. But instinctually, we kind of stay away from it in terms of what we want to consume. And we’re very consumer-oriented so the rotting can feel very uncomfortable for, I think our culture where, when you think about the rotting in terms of death, all that nutrients go back to the earth, but something. I think people were, we’re a death shy culture and we put us, our people that have passed inboxes and kind of keep them separate from the earth. And  I think that there’s a lot of discomfort around Scorpio season where there doesn’t necessarily have to be. I don’t think it’s natural that there’s just comfort around this time of year, but it’s definitely there, especially, I noticed it in myself.

Breann (00:08:29) That’s a really good point. And I noticed it’s funny that you are talking about death and talking about a kind of ugliness like the rotting pumpkin. It’s so interesting. When I went through a walkthrough of nature around the Scorpio new moon, I ended up searching everywhere for something beautiful. Like I just wanted to look at the pretty and the nice cause I didn’t want to look at the ugliness in myself. And then I noticed I was doing it. So I allowed myself to look at the ugly parts of the world and I just fell in love. I was like, can I love this? And it was like, absolutely, of course, I can. And I just found beauty. It wasn’t even finding the beauty in the ugliness. It was seeing the ugliness as beautiful. And then I wrote a poem about it and I was like, ah, epiphany, that is beautiful. 

Abby (00:09:18) That poem that you shared on your Instagram you shared a new brand and incredible poet. I love what you ladies are saying about that. And it reminds me of a quote I read about by Carl Young, not too long ago, and this is not the exact wording, but as I remember it, he said, you know a lot of traditional therapy will try to move you around, like a move you away from depression, move you above it and out of it. And he said, you know, you need to grab them by the neck. And we’re just a little rough and go into it. You need to move through it. And it’s that like, let’s look away from death. Let’s not acknowledge it. And death is like the death of the body, that the king leaves the death of the ego, the death of an old chapter in life. So that, like you said, in the spring, we can birth a new one. And I feel like it’s so healing to have that mindset. Recently for me, I just re-processed a really big piece with my husband of this old wound that started years ago when I came back from Peru and I almost went and just had a different life and just lived in the jungle for a long time. And part of me it was still like, you could go do that. Maybe you’d be happier. Maybe this life’s all wrong. I was like, oh, hello toxicity. That sounds very dangerous. And that came up again and it was, you know, it was just like both he and I was like, wow, this big pile of poison just showed up. How do we deal with this? And I just like slept for most of the day or morning and processed it and then realized, oh, no, that’s no, I chose this life. And I’m really happy. And that wasn’t actually what I was. But that old wound needed to come up to be released, but with less awareness, I could have just gone and been like, oh, I didn’t need to leave you to do that life. It’s like, no, no, that was an old wound coming up because before we started recording Jessica, you had said, oh, this stuff’s coming up because I feel well enough to deal with it. And I feel like I have a level of awareness and love and stability in my life to process this.

Jessica (00:11:22) But it’s difficult because it takes that quietness and being able to hold yourself enough to realize that that’s the truth.  And that’s because like the other day I woke up and the thought that came into my mind was the first thing I heard when I woke up as I have a borderline personality disorder and I haven’t had that thought or identified in that way for a very long time. But deep aspects. This whole move, from Calgary to British Columbia has unearthed trauma between ages like 10 and 16 when all of that started. So it does feel like I have that again, but it’s not that I have that it’s, that I’m moving through the root system of what that was. It’s like the plant has been cut off. There are no more flowers on that tree of that illness identification, but we’re just taking the roots out.

Abby (00:12:17)And it’s like you, you feel and Whitten and remember witness and remember as it’s leaving and all we have to do is a process and not attached to it, which, you know, that’s all, it’s so simple.

Jessica (00:12:28) It’s easy right ladies? 

Breann (00:12:30) Absolutely. I’ve been walking in the park.

Jessica (00:12:34) I’m having a great time,

Breann (00:12:40) Does call for that stillness though. Like, and maybe that’s a theme in my life. I know I recently did a ceremony with Iowasca and a big message that I was seeing was like, this, do this, this oscillation in my life between this restless, like rash action and this like stagnant energy and kind of going back and forth, which I see in my psyche as the mother and the father in my life. And I lost it, I kept being like, can you come back to stillness? Can you just come to stillness? And she was showing me how, like, if I can just like the difference between that restless energy of, oh my God, I’m so uncomfortable. I just need to change my situation right now versus that stagnant energy of, oh my God, I’m so uncomfortable. I just need to shut down right now. And then coming into this stillness state, I was at work the other day and all of these thoughts were in my head. And I was like, I heard, I was asked to say, what if you were just still? And so I became still, and it was so fascinating because you know that feeling when your mind is racing and it’s like a ping pong, I don’t know, like pew, pew, pew have all these thoughts. I became still. And I realized all the thoughts were still there. Just like floating around my aura, just kind of there. And when I was still, it was like, well, does it matter? Like whatever becomes of any of these things will become, I don’t need to think about it. I can just. It was like, oh, that was easy.

Abby (00:14:07) It’s so powerful.

Breann (00:14:08) Once you do it, it’s easy.

Abby (00:14:10) It’s like the opposite of anxiety I am, as I imagine it anyway.

Jessica (00:14:18) No, that’s so interesting. And what, what, I’m what I’m noticing myself as like are or returning to my feminine energy. And it’s interesting when you talk about the stagnant or the rash, I think within myself, my masculine energy either feels stagnant or like it needs to go. And maybe my feminine is where I can find that stillness, but like my feminine is so powerful when I remember that it is, but a lot of the time habitually my masculine energy views it as a weakened vulnerable, something that needs fierce protection. And that aspect of me will live. The external world, bad and dangerous, where if I can soften and find stillness and allow the feminine to be like, Hey, this is okay. We’re not in control. We’re just flowing more than my masculine can be like, okay. So I don’t need to freak out. It’s like, no, you don’t, you don’t need to freak out if that would help. But I think that at that age where I was speaking about from 10 to 16, I think my masculine energy took over and was like, okay, we’ll create a mask, which is very BPD. Like we’ll create this mask and that will protect the inner child. And she just stayed in there and saved really little and never really had the chance to flourish or evolve. But through working with you, Abby, like, and that’s the other thing I wanted to mention was I did the mentorship with you. But before that, for about, I think eight months we worked together and it was only in those sessions with you. That like I’d show up at your house and I’d be like, oh my God, I feel like myself. And then for the next few days, I’d be like, oh my God, I’m myself. I’m empowered. That would go away a little bit. And then I come back and work with you again. And you were just mirroring or like seeing me for who I was. And that’s what led me to even want to ask you to do the mentorship. So I think that when you look at Scorpio season BREEAM, would you see that as like feminine or a masculine-feminine? 

Breann (00:16:27) In the water?

Jessica (00:16:30) So maybe it’s quite difficult when you’re existing within the kind of a, not so healthy, masculine energy, and that’s how you operate. I can see that making Scorpio season a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

Breann (00:16:42) I could see that. I could see that I’m going to double-check the feminine masculine. I’m pretty sure it’s feminine,

Jessica (00:16:48) But like, you’d be right. Cause the water element 

Breann (00:16:50) Yea it is. It is feminine. I love it. And it’s that anytime you’re in that watery realm, right?  It’s like the masculine doesn’t flow, the masculine. I know Jess and me. I used to be on the good medicine show and we interviewed someone once who gave an incredible analogy that I use all the freaking time. What was her name? 

Abby (00:17:09) Taylor. Taylor, 

Breann (00:17:11) Yes. And it was about the masculine and the feminine. And it was where the masculine is like the riverbanks and it creates the structure and without the masculine and the feminine is the water. So it’s like the water running through. And if the masculine is not present, then the water just has no direction. And it just kind of goes out everywhere. But if it has too much restraint on the feminine, then the feminine isn’t able to like move and flow or it could even like a flood over. And it’s about that relationship of the riverbanks and the water flowing through to create this like healthy balance within yourself. And then when you have that within yourself also mirroring that in relationship with that. 

Abby (00:17:53) And I love that description. I couldn’t agree more with the masculine versus feminine energy.

Abby (00:17:58) And thank you for what you said, Jessica as well. I think that’s beautiful and I think, I feel like that kind of ties into it too, or like the feminine kind of needs to feel safe enough. To feel seen and acknowledged to come out. Cause I found that in myself too, it’s like when I’m around, it’s easier now because I like a deeper sense of belonging in myself, but that is hugely nourished by people who are ready to also be themselves and are, you know, can meet in a similar place. And so it kind of opens the door, like a channel for the water to flow. It’s like, I’m allowed to be here. I can flow into these channels. 

Breann (00:18:41)And it’s, it’s interesting that you say that too. Cause it kind of, I, as you were speaking, I was seeing two levels of that, where it’s like the one level of the patriarchal system that we live in and how that has shamed and shrunken the feminine in this way, where like it needs that safety to be able to express.

Breann (00:19:02) But then on another level, when I really tune into the feminine and me without any of the masculine presents, just that core feminine. Like an absolute abyss. It’s just this absolute infinity. Like I’m always just floating in this dark ocean of infinite flow and energy. And it reminds me of when I came to you in the mentorship program and it’s like, I am so connected. I can see all of these things. How do I structure it? And it’s like, you need to bring in that masculine energy to be able to bring all of this deliciousness into form in this reality.

Abby (00:19:49) It supports it. The masculine imbalance supports the feminine and then the feminine guides, the masculine, I was like, where are we going?

Jessica (00:19:51) This is why it’s so important to heal like these patriarchal wounds because the masculine historically was controlling of that divine, feminine energy. And of course, the feminine turns toxic as well. And both of those exist. But when you have that divine masculine in that divine feminine, it’s like.

Abby (00:20:08) Powerful. And the patriarchy hurts both men and women. I was talking with David about that this morning, you know, roles and gender roles of how you should be growing up. It’s hard for everybody. And so like for, you know, both men and women, to be able to be allowed even to feel the feminine and the masculine within themselves in a way that feels safe.

Breann (00:20:3) Yeah. I’ve had a lot of like the work that I do with male clients, especially people that are seeking out this type of work. One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of them have had examples of masculinity in their life that have made them not want to have power. They don’t want to touch it because they don’t want to hurt anyone, but to feel empowered, they need to reclaim that healthily. What I noticed when I work with people sometimes will kind of help them kind of split into that masculine, feminine. And what I always notice is if there is a belief in the masculine, if I need to be in control, then there is the alternative view in the feminine of I’m not safe. So then we choose which belief in, depending on the day that they’re having, what belief do you feel more comfortable working on first? And then once we free that one up, the other one is so ready to be seen and worked through on that like deep body level. And then we bring them together. And the words I usually use are let’s invite them to dance along the middle. 

Abby (00:21:30)  Hmm, that’s great. I love them. 

Beann (00:21:32) Yeah. And the way their voices change is that the light in their room changes on the video. Like an epic. It just, it, it, and you can tell they’re feeling better. I’m like, Hey, but this isn’t practiced. We have to practice unifying these causes habitually, you’re going to want to pull them apart the second year triggered so we could practice unification. And that’s even something that I’m probably going to be continuing to learn within myself for years.

Abby (00:21:58)  Yeah. And, and feeling safe. And coming back to that place of grounded, you know, awareness, especially, and it’s. Our past experiences, which I am a huge part of it. It’s also the world we live in. You know, we live in an even in nature, if I go into the forest and I see the prey animals, I’m like, oh man, not easy being a rabbit and a world full of coyotes, but it’s part of being alive and we’re here and having this experience of consciousness and working through it, you know, part of me wonders because we are a part of nature. I feel like I’m getting into a bit of a tangent right now.

Jessica (00:22:36) I love it. I love the tangent. 

Abby (00:22:37) Okay. All right. I’m going to keep going. Thanks. I feel like, you know, life still feels kind of raw here and it is. And like as humans, we like to kind of pretend to be civilized, but we’re still a part of all of that and made of that, an extension of nature. And, you know, you can see the possessiveness in nature, the fear, the dominance, the brutality, as well as the love and the kindness and the gentleness as this duality. That’s been here for as far as we know, but part of me feels like as humans are we here supporting this? Are we here supporting this evolution into a place of more gentleness or more of a feeling of safety overall through being, you know, a human animal, then awakening to this stuff?

Breann (00:23:29) Yeah. It’s interesting. What came forward immediately was that it’s hard to be a rabbit in a world full of coyotes, the rabbit right out the gate has an abundance of food all around it. For the most part grass leaves. It can just eat, eat, whatever it wants, but the coyote has to go looking for the food and find the food. So when you look at it from that perspective, Survival, the coyote has fewer threats coming towards it, but it needs to find the rabbit or it starves where the rabbit is just like it has to avoid the coyote, but the food is plentiful. So it’s like this. Yeah. This is a radar image. Yeah. 

Jessica (00:24:08) Yeah. It reminds me of like, if you ever watch a documentary that’s focused on a lion and you just really want them to get that zebra, and then you watch a documentary focused on the zebra and you’re like, oh, the evil lion. And it’s like, right. Nature that I think I would love. I think humanity could benefit from returning in a way if it’s not like it’s without pain. It’s not like it’s without suffering. It’s not like it was without this, this devastation. That just seems to be a part of the human and animal experience.

Jessica (00:24:42) But like a coyote doesn’t kill just for fun. When a coyote eats a hare it’s to nourish themselves and their children, it’s, there’s this, there’s this balance and this harmony and this, this respect, that nature seems to have for one another. And of course, you don’t see that in all aspects of nature, there are different things that happen. But I think humanity with us, as our consciousness increases, I think we’ll have more potential to come back to a state of that, where it’s like, we take what we need and we give what we can return.

Abby (00:25:22) Yeah, so much power and so much potential, and we’re either directing it towards total devastation or incredible heavenly blessing or sorry.

Jessica (00:25:31) And when we find the balance. And I, oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, I was going to say, you can see that just in terms of what the world’s going through right now with COVID and that decision around a vaccine and then the mandates it’s like, we were not coming to an acceptance that there are different ways of being here. That there’s, there are very, very different ways of being.

Abby (00:25:57) Yeah. And then I could see both sides of like, you know, fear of. Getting to have bodily autonomy and, you know, do what feels right for your body and live in a way that feels natural versus fear of spreading the virus and, you know, not having control over what others do obviously. And it’s a very strong example of duality and polarity. And I think we were kind of chatting in the bit where it’s like, I can see both sides, but sometimes it’s hard to see both like to hold one hand at the same time because they both feel so opposing and charged in that way. Yeah. 

Breann (00:26:40) And I know when I watched this, like on the news and you see it with a lot of issues these days, there’s, there’s such an intense polarization. And I feel like. From my perspective, the medicine that’s needed for both parties is empathy and compassion, because so often it’s just this energy of, yeah, like nobody’s listening to each other. Each person is passionately believing their perspective, which is okay. But without listening to the other side, the reality is that both sides exist and there probably is a middle ground we could get to. But for some reason, there’s just this complete separation from that. Nobody wants to look at the ugly parts of the other or each other, wanting to look at the ugly parts of each other.

Jessica (00:27:27) The idea that’s coming forward is the idea of like, literally like the masculine being on the right side of the body, this righteousness, right. Of this certainty, that the way I’m viewing this is the right way. And it’s like, okay, but what if you just left the car, left the conversation for a second, and went into acceptance for. You don’t know what this reality is. You don’t know where we’re going or what evolution has in her back pocket, where like you don’t know. And I’ve been, this has been like a thing that’s been coming up for what a year and a half now. The idea of certainty snakes. When I feel tightness in my body, when I feel like I am right, I can almost picture these like certainty, snakes, coiling up and tightening in my body. And then, what I’ve realized about them is that they’re not bad, but they’re not pets.

Jessica (00:28:17) I have to let them go. They belong in the wild. I have to let go of my certainty, snakes, what moves out of my body, ease, relax. And I work with this wonderful being named Oscar. And when I get into deep certainty about how things are, or what I think is right or wrong, he’ll remind me that the place that we’re standing as living beings is the bourdo like this is the liminal space between death and rebirth and birth and death. So all lessons are being learned here. All perspectives are available here, and if I want to grab onto one, okay. Have fun with that game. But eventually, I’m going to have to let that go. Either when I leave my physical form, to let myself have a more enjoyable life.

Abby (00:29:03) I can let that go now. Yeah. A hundred percent, you know, and I won’t go into too much, but like to let that go, when you leave your physical form, you can choose to stay attached to that. And you know, your haunt, everybody on this point of me being right, I’m not moving on. I gotta prove this still body or no, you’re right. And that’s never helpful either. But yeah, it’s absolutely. And it’s something that I’m, so it reminds me of a couple of things. One neuro-linguistic programming, it’s like a modality where they teach and then they talk about, you know, having a map of the world and we all have our own map of the world and the way we see things through the filter of our beliefs and past experiences.

Abby (00:29:42) And then with that, we delete, distort, and generalize the information, the input that we’re doing. And so there is no truth. There’s the way that I am perceiving it through the filters of my mind always. And we’re just programmed as humans to experience life that way always. And like, let me make an absolute right now. And then and then with that, you talked about like, you know, letting go of certainty. So we lost Breanne for a little while. She heard me she was there and then she wasn’t there. So I’m just going to recap a little bit. Could we pause the recording? So we’re talking about Byron Katie. And challenging kind of what you talked about earlier as certainty snakes, Jessica, and how, you know, the belief of being right and I’m right.

Abby (00:30:27) And they did this to me and I need to do this. It’s the only way, and they are wrong and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like all those things that make your body go all rigid and tight and your face go red. It’s like the body trying to reject that toxic belief. That’s not in alignment because your body lets you know when things belong and don’t belong there.

Abby (00:30:49) And I was mentioning how, whenever I challenge a belief of something, you know, that feels painful. It feels so counter-intuitive, it feels like the most uncomfortable thing imaginable. You know, push at this pillar of the belief that I’ve currently am holding myself upon, but whenever I do that, and whenever I say, is it true? Can I be absolutely certain that it’s true, that so-and-so did this to me or that, you know, the world is blah, blah, blah. And then whenever I challenged that and no one ever asked, who would I be on the other side of that, the answer is always free. I will be free without that. And it’s really such a painful and powerful process.

Abby (00:31:31) That’s why Byron Katie calls it the work. Cause it’s not necessarily fun, but man, is it effective and powerful?

Jessica (00:31:39) Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know who said it, some, some Buddhist monk of some sort, but it’s that statement of I’d rather be free than,  and I feel like it’s really, it’s interesting. I think you see this with a lot of social justice issues now, and I think it’s an interesting thing.

Breann (00:31:58) We’re trying to figure out how to navigate as a collective, because when there’s a lot of rage and anger, which I’ve seen a lot of, there is this, like, it is valid. Like this anger is valid. This rage is valid. These injustices are true and really healing. That is an inside job in a lot of ways. Of course, everybody, like people, all need to choose to do the healing. And there is absolutely a need to communicate that outwardly until like, you know, activism and things like that are really, really important. But it’s interesting. I don’t want to generalize, but some of the more I feel like I see some of the more like radical energies are very not looking at themselves and healing their internal stuff.

Breann (00:32:54) And so the way that things are communicated can become distorted. Yeah. I don’t know if that’s 

Abby (00:33:00) Yeah, I see it as like, and I, I, I can definitely see that. And I feel like I struggled with that for a while. You know, there’s a part of me and this was for me, there’s not anyone else’s experience I can speak to, but for me it a pardon me, like as a healer, that wants to be, there was to say, don’t play a victim, you know, like move on, get out.

Abby (00:33:22)  And I’ll use the parallel of the me-too movement because I’m a woman. So I feel like I can speak to that a little bit. When there was, you know, a lot of voicing of this happened to me and this happened to me, that happened to me. And there’s a part of me. That’s like, I don’t want to identify as a victim.

Abby (00:33:36) And then it took me a while to get to the point of like, this is just holding space. Right now. And the rest comes later for those who are ready for it to find freedom from that. But step one of holding space, and

Jessica (00:33:51) Like having a place for that rage to exist like that. Yeah.

Abby (00:33:56)  As you said, that anger is valid. Every emotion is valid. And where does it, where, when does anger get to have a place to exist? Not very often. 

Jessica (00:34:04) Absolutely. 

Abby (00:34:05) But then within the next step is how do we move, you know, rise, move through that and bring healing into it. And that’s a whole lot of steps that would look different for everybody. But I thought it was interesting, like for me, and I’ve noticed this in myself in a lot of different ways. And then my relationship to step out of the role of trying to fix it. Cause like, I know how to fix this. I’m good at fixing things. Let’s challenge ourselves. The beliefs let’s heal. Let’s do it right now. I was like, oh, you don’t want that. Okay. Yeah. I will practice holding space. And that was more uncountable.

Abby (00:34:40) For me to just be okay with them not being okay. But then on the other side of that is of course freedom. Yep.

Breann (00:34:50) Yeah. It’s the pendulum swinging, right? It’s like, you have to go to these kinds of opposite extreme states and slowly come back into the center. But there is, especially with a lot of the things we’re talking about.

Breann (00:35:03) There’s this like generational trauma that gets passed on and passed on and suppressed and suppressed. And so when you finally are in a place where it’s allowed to be spoken and it’s allowed to exist, it’s like, like a waterfall of emotions that can come out and it’s like, whoa. 

Jessica (00:35:22) And I think our culture does, it’s interesting to watch. Like I think that’s part of the polarization is it’s like not knowing how to hold that. Like people it’s like, well, like expecting to be at that center line now instead of. Going through the flow of the generations of healing this, yes. 

Abby (00:35:42) Yeah. How do we navigate that? And it kind of reminds me of the beginning. We were talking about the Scorpio season and going into the depths and the darkness of the ocean. And I feel like we’ve been kind of going through that for some time since COVID started. And, you know, with the black lives movement of all of this rising up to look at what’s going on, this is not okay.

Abby (00:36:02) And with every child matters with all of the bones of indigenous children were found at the residential schools. You know, it’s like, it’s, it’s so painful to feel that coming up. But then at the same time, to me, it feels like the beginning of healing, you know, it’s, it’s being on earth. It’s being acknowledged in step one. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It’s not the only step, but it’s, it feels like it often has to be the first one. Yeah

Jessica (00:36:37) It’s interesting. And this is kind of like a bit of a tangent, but very symbolic. I keep having these weird, momentary daydreams, or even waking up at night from having dreams that were depicting queen Elizabeth dying and a ripple that’s going to come from that. But this term of like, like the unhealthy matriarchal that was kind of in charge of what even happened there, what’s continuing to happen in North America or like Canada, I guess. Because North America includes the USA, but this idea of like you were saying, the feminine can be toxic as well.

Jessica (00:37:16) So this big mother wound, that’s also being unveiled right now when it comes to. I don’t know if I was going with that, but I keep having weird little creeps in daydreams about what’s going to happen when that falls, the interesting structure of power. 

Breann (00:37:39) I feel like, for me, everything keeps coming back to like empathy and compassion. At least my role in everything. It’s like, whenever I see and whatever, it’s like, when I see people being like, oh, well, they shouldn’t be the same group. They should be listening more. It’s like everybody, I just like compassion, empathy, compassion, empathy. Like how, like, how can I hold that space more?

Breann (00:37:57) It’s like, it feels like, yeah.

Abby (00:38:04)And it’s so simple, no matter what the context is. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, 

Jessica (00:38:09) When it comes to that compassionate empathy, the other, the other side of that, that I keep noticing in clients, especially clients that are trying to have better boundaries with people in their life that are not at a place of healing or that have abused them.

Jessica (00:38:23) It’s like, okay, you could have compassionate empathy, but you don’t have to carry their stuff. Don’t pick it up. So like compassion, empathy does not mean necessarily putting on their shoes or stepping into that person’s shoes, 

Abby (00:38:35) Compassion and empathy extend towards yourself as well. So if it doesn’t feel compassionate for you to let them into your space.

Jessica (00:38:44) Yeah. And I’m curious when it comes to all of this stuff, and I’m just maybe if you guys have words on this the understanding and acceptance for everyone in all of their views and having your own boundaries. So it’s like, because sometimes when I step into that space of empathy and compassion feel like my boundaries dissolve, it’s like, where do you, the this, this eyes of me versus the totality of the uses of the collective consciousness we live in, it feels right.

Abby (00:39:21) And I think it’s about the balance. And I kind of feel that too. There’s the ultimate oneness and heart union and connection, but then, you know, the egoic mind also has a place here to create a sense of separateness. And so like, you know, if I’m having dinner with Jessica, I want to know to put the food in my mouth and not Jessica’s mouth because I’m me and you’re you.

Abby (00:39:47)  And it’s that bad. And I, and I talked earlier about Byron Katie. When she first had her spiritual awakening, she didn’t have that balance, everything. It was just oneness and everyone was her beloved and she would touch them and hug them. And she couldn’t really function as a person in society for a while.

Abby (00:40:05) Same thing with Eckhart. Totally. He just sat on park benches all day long processing all of the stimuli around him. Because it was so mind-blowing to him. And then eventually he was able to ground into a form of structure and, and linear movement. But it’s when we’ve been in such a place of imbalance where there’s so much separateness, it can kind of go that awakening can kind of be a gradual dipping in and out of it, into the union and connection and back out of all right now, I need to care for my physical being to the separateness and for other people, it’s just this explosion right away, like Byron and Katie and I got totally. And then they have to figure out how to bring that balance back. 

Breann (00:40:47) Yeah, so true. Like I think that’s been a big theme actually for me during Scorpio season has been this I’ve really been, Iowasca really illuminated to me how deeply I just love everyone and everything. And I can just like, see that, that core light at the, at the essence of every human. And I just have this deep, profound love that I can go into with anybody like anybody, anything, any object, any being, and. I’ve been really, I mean, my whole life has been a practice of boundary with what I’ve recognized, but in this past month or so, there’s been a lot of tests coming up for me, okay.

Breann (00:41:32) Like you can see the core light of this person and can you set that boundary with them? And they’re not, you know, there are all of these layers of distortion above them that is making them act in these toxic ways. Can you love them completely and cut them out of your life? And it’s like, how do you hold?

Breann (00:41:51) And I have been, but it’s such an interestingly excruciating experience, to hold this like infinite love and create that separation and create that boundary. But it’s also completely necessary because if you don’t, that’s how you just, you can’t, you can’t come into the light of yourself because you’re so traumatized all the time. All the energy you invite in. Yeah. 

Abby (00:42:17)The sense that I feel is you holding those two together, just simply doing that is beginning to bring balance and harmony. The ability to hold both at once is so powerful and begins. Your energy is going to naturally start harmonizing between the two of them with the scales, the balance.

Abby (00:42:38) That’s your sign. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s like I forget who it was, but they talked about, you know, one of the Buddhas and how he’s aware of suffering and he feels the suffering of everyone. But at the same time, he’s joyful. And to be able to witness the darkness will also still relish in the light and to feel both, then you don’t need to hide from one or the other.

Jessica (00:43:07) Do you no harm take no shit.

Breann (00:43:15) The essence of boundaries, right? Like don’t, I think Buddha was like, don’t add to the suffering. You do your best as you can. Yeah, it’s interesting. It reminds me too. I just keep seeing the visuals like zeros and ones like that. Duality, like structure that we’ve been living in and, and existing in and creating everywhere around us, and how challenging it is for our brains to rewire and not just see things as duality.

Breann (00:43:44)  Like you see this, I think a lot with sexuality and people and their struggles with comprehending that there’s more than just males and females and that there’s this spectrum of, of gender in the spectrum of sexuality that we can all exist in. Like rewiring the brain to see the world in that way and allowing things to exist, not just as black and white, but it’s gray. Like how do we, how do we, and it’s,

Abby (00:44:16) Like how do we, how do we, and it’s, it’s the meaning that we give it, like, we define it as light or dark or good or bad, and the soul just wants to have an experience. It doesn’t label it any one thing. And, you know, it’s so much of going back. I find in the healing journey is just witnessing, observing,  don’t be attached to the labels.

Abby (00:44:35) I allow them to be there, but just witness it. And I find that like with past life work when I’ve gone back to really early life, that was one of my core wounds, where I was a hunter and I killed this animal and I loved the whole experience, felt primal and alive until I looked at the hurt on the animals and the hurt.

Abby (00:44:5) And I made eye contact and I felt this profound pain in the eyes of its family. And I realized I had done this and that I had at that moment, all of these things I’ve met in nature, I met that it is this way. I’m mad at myself. I’m mad at God. I get it, all of these things, which took several lifetimes of the work process.

Abby (00:45:16) But this life going back to that scene for me anyway, it was like, it was about, can I continue looking into the eyes of that being, and hold love, even though there’s all of these things that I don’t like happening, that I want to be different. Can I accept this and sit with this and witness this and just allow myself to stay there and not run away from it. It was where I found a lot of it was the healing that I needed to find in that. Yeah,

Breann (00:45:47) My partner calls this putting on the wet sock. It’s not, it’s not comfortable. It’s not comfortable. It’s like the entrance into the God realm is putting on a wet sock. 

Abby (00:45:58)  That’s the hilarious entrance into the God realm. You are going to put your wet sock on and then we will go, no, it’s not, but it’s powerful and it’s alive. And it’s, it becomes part of, for me anyway, feeling more alive. And it’s, it’s like a heart-opening experience. I feel like that, like, it’s a continuous journey of heart-opening, heart-opening, and awakening, 

Breann (00:46:25) Just having the visual of the heart-opening. And it’s like, the more your heart opens, the more you can hold. The more your heart opens. The more you can hold because you’re just bigger and bigger. It’s like in and of yourself. Yeah.

Abby (00:46:38) I kind of have a habit of breaking up. I’ve heard people talk about this when they have children, I don’t have children, but people talk about that when they have children. And they say, I don’t know if I can hold this much love.

Abby (00:46:50) And it’s just like this full cycle of, I feel like, can be so powerful when someone comes into the world, when someone leaves the world, like when my dad passed away and I just felt, wow, like the bigness of that is just so big to feel in my heart. Wow. It’s a lot. Yeah. But it’s all based on love at the end of the day. Yeah. Oh yeah. 

Jessica (00:47:17) There’s a lot of collective grief happening right now. Yeah. It just feels like there’s a collective grieving happening. I think like the idea a lot of people have talked about it could be, you look at the astrology community, the moving into the age of Aquarius, kind of like that official.

Jessica (00:47:31) It’s the age of Aquarius now? Well, we’re grieving. The way, the old era, the era that’s passing away, that age of Pisces, right. And whenever anything dies, there’s a huge Creek. Because we were tied to that. It was what, an interesting time to be alive, where we’re moving through that process of like a literal new world unfolding the uncertainty of what is, what is life going to look like?

Jessica (00:47:59) Now we have no idea what this new age is going to bring. 

Abby (00:48:02) We don’t, and it’s so exciting and heartbreaking to be letting go of the old one, the clearing out for a new kind of spring. Sorry. Yeah. 

Breann (00:48:13) And it’s funny because we’re, that’s the, like astrology can put things on such a big scale where it’s like, we’re not even going to see what the core of the age of Aquarius is because it’s thousands of years and we’re just, we’re the, just this tiny speck.

Breann (00:48:28) And of course in different lifetimes, maybe we’ll play it out. Right. But it’s, it’s so interesting to think of. When you put it on that scale, it’s like, yes. Like things take time. Things take generations to move through such a collective. We can do our own individual process and that helps move along the collective and whatever way we do our process, but it is like this just, can you be present with and accept what is, because it is, and obviously also do your part to change because yeah.

Abby (00:49:04) It’s the balance, right? It’s not necessary to be different, but also doing your best to co-create a good world for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jessica (00:49:17) And it’s interesting. Like I think when it comes to. Like accepting other people’s views and accepting other people’s perspectives on real life, right. And wrong. You don’t necessarily get there until you learn to accept yourself and all the parts of yourself that you’re pushing back against.

Jessica (00:49:37) Right. And then, and when you know that you can accept your story and you can read your story with understanding and compassion, empathy, then you get to pick up that pen and start co-authoring. Then you actually feel like you’re in a bit more control. And what’s interesting is like the people that and there’s, there are so many people around the world that and maybe it’s a bit of a, a judgment to even assume this, that they, they, they might not have this level of awareness where they can recognize that, that statement from, you know, Jesus, that guy that was around of forgiving them.

Jessica (00:50:13) They know not what they do. If they had the depth in the awareness. To see what’s actually happening. Would they be behaving in that way? 

Abby (00:50:22) Exactly. And there’s this, the debate out in them, out in the world of determinism versus free will and which is it. And I feel like it’s both, it’s determinism when you’re simply reacting through your imprinting and your triggers and your traumas, and you don’t yet have the awareness to change that.

Jessica (00:50:44) And then it becomes free will when you awaken to the choice and the power that you have to respond differently and to create what you want instead of what you just see around you so free will exists within perspective. 

Abby (00:51:00) Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And all happens within it, that it can’t happen outside of you.

Abby (00:51:07) That’s an internal switch. Yeah. Yeah. 

Breann (00:51:12) The power of going within. I feel like I felt that a lot with my journey through feminism. I think first there was this period of educating myself and learning about myself and learning about the things that were happening. Like switching my perspective about the experiences in my life and what they actually were and how they were impacting me.

Breann (00:51:30) And then, I mean, when I came into feminism, it was very not cool to be a feminist. It was very, I mean, I don’t know if it is even now, but like it was where I was living and what was happening. It was like the butt of every joke. And so I feel like when I came out about it, I had to be very tactical.

Breann (00:51:49) But slowly that turned into rage. I feel like, and I had this whole process of rage and then slowly I had to take that rage and I had to like, okay, like it’s such a hopeless feeling. It feels like determinism. You’re speaking about where it’s just like, well, there’s nothing I can do every time I walk down the street, this happens.

Breann (00:52:07) And every time, you know what I mean, that’s just like, this is just my experience in this reality. And then taking that within and taking those beliefs within and like processing that within my own system ended up changing how I move through the world in this interesting way that just had me being surrounded by fewer threats and I’m still processing through a lot of stuff, but it’s interesting to see just on my own, in my own psyche, how that’s that transition in that area of life into freewill has healed. That’s beautiful. But then again, yeah, the balance isn’t. It is both, but sorry, go ahead. No, I,

Abby (00:52:49) I can relate to what you said. I felt a similar thing and I went through veganism and I felt like I couldn’t, I had, it was walking on eggshells. And then I got a lot of rage because of that because I felt like I couldn’t be myself and the people weren’t listening to things that were really important to hear.

Abby (00:53:03) And, but they should have been. And they’re like, where did that rage have to go? When it feels like, kind of reminds me earlier, we were talking about holding space. It feels like you, how that space for yourself, you processed all of that. And What a cool thing to start as a society doing that for each other to collectively start holding space. Because the bigness of what needs to be processed I think is asking for that in a lot of ways. Yeah. I feel that so deeply, I just got chills. It’s like, yes. Like, you know what, if I 

Breann (00:53:36) Like, you know what, if I didn’t have to hold space for me, what if the collective could have held that space for me? And I feel like that’s why, or with me.

Breann (00:53:43) Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like that’s why, that’s the main thing that I’m trying to do right now with the things going on in the collective. It’s like, how can I hold the space for you? 

Abby (00:53:53) Yeah, totally. And I feel like coming together and having places where it’s safe to be you and be seen and not have to filter or hold back and you know, respectfully like, no one’s attacking anybody, but like like getting to talk with you ladies and you know, my community it feels like this is a place that.

Abby (00:54:15)  People can be seen and nurture it for their differences and not to woo or be too magical or too weird or too much, you know? And it’s like that alone just feels so healing and it’s like nourishment that makes it so much easier to then be tolerant of our differences. Yeah. It’s yeah,

Jessica (00:54:36) It’s interesting. I’m curious when it comes to the emotion of anger something happened in the town that I live in, where it was a remembrance day ceremony and someone brought their own microphone and started in the middle of the remembrance day ceremony yelling about mandates around vaccines. And it was like, okay, your anger has spilled over into a place where you’re interrupting other people’s grieving right now.

Jessica (00:55:03) So it’s like when, when anger crosses that line into that kind of righteous. And it’s like, oh man, like you, you’re almost hurting your stance around your, your freedom when you invade someone else’s boundary to yell about it. Right. Yeah. Hmm. 

Abby (00:55:23) Hurt people, hurt people. Yeah.

Breann (00:55:26) And I think that’s like therapy and, you know, just having your communities of support is so important because yes, that anger needs a place and the place is not at this, this remembrance day ceremony.

Breann (00:55:39) The place is maybe doing like. Release writing in your bedroom or calling up a friend and having an emotional release or, you know, some sort of physical activity or going to a therapist or whatever.

Abby (00:55:52) And then taking a bag of sand and beating it up with a bat.

Breann (00:55:56)  Exactly. Like these are the places to healthily release our anger and our rage that absolutely needs to be released. And then when you come to the group and you come to like to preach to the collective about your experience, people will be able to hear you better because that anger and that rage will be cleared in your, your language will be more clear.

Abby (00:56:17) Yeah, exactly. 

Breann (00:56:18)  Sorry, I’m just talking with my hands, like crazy over here.

Abby (00:56:20) You know, we’re, we’re all just enraptured by your hand motions and hopefully we will get a seat.

Abby (00:56:24)  Imagine. I just want them to know when they listen to the hand dancing.

Jessica (00:56:29) Italian magic. True to his form. Oscar showed up with a wonderful image analogy. He was showing a kid trying to build something out of construction paper, but their hands were on fire because of the anger. So it’s just, it’s just burning up the message you’re trying to create. Hmm. Yeah. If they tended to the fire, then it could have created a bit of a warm space to have this message delivered instead of an Inferno, right?

Abby (00:57:01)Yeah. It’s great, it’s a great visual. And so I think what you’re saying, Brianna’s, let’s let some of those flames come down until we have like an Amber that can then fuel things instead of consume everything. And just for those listeners, Oscar is one of Jessica’s guides. So she checks in with him frequently.

Abby (00:57:22) There’s not another physical person here, but Oscar also gives us insight because they’re wondering.

Jessica (00:57:27) Yeah, all that was coming up in terms of the child with the fire is like the recognition of our, our collective innocence. 

Abby (00:57:36)Yeah, exactly. 

Jessica (00:57:37) That beautiful song that we are all innocent songs is just like playing in my mind for the last five minutes.

Abby (00:57:42) Yeah. Well, big kids heal trying to heal our inner child walking around in these adult bodies.

Breann (00:57:50) Yeah. Yes, yes. And that goes so well into what I was going to say about like, recognizing that, like that’s, that’s a child standing there with their hands on fire. That’s not a grown adult that should know what to do with that fire.

Breann (00:58:0) And when we’re talking about these big issues that are affecting people’s safety, people’s quality of life. People’s ability to survive. This is deep, deep trauma. Like these are the big issues. And I find a lot, people are like, they shouldn’t be talking about it. So angrily. And it’s like, yeah, you know, that’s not the most productive way to communicate these things.

Breann (00:58:23) There are other ways for them to channel this anger and to heal this stuff and all of the things that have happened to them and. The generations before them have made it so that it’s, they might not have the resources to go within and do that work right now. Like we need to do both, like if you’re in a place where you do have the resources and you are able to process your trauma, you need to be processing your trauma so that you can stand up for the collective in a healthier way.

Breann (00:58:52) And if you’re not, and you’re just raging in these, you know, less, you know, in whatever ways that you’re raging to the collective that’s okay too, you know, like empathy and compassionate compassion for that experience and where you’re at right now 

Abby (00:59:07) beautifully said. And when you imagine that, when you realize that, you know, we’re all, we all have the inner child and they’re, they’ve got, they went through a lot, even if we had a quote-unquote, typical upbringing, there’s still all kinds of stuff that, you know, We deal with, and we’re really sensitive and just imagining and thinking that, oh, of those people that I’ve blamed and the government and Trump, and now, you know, everybody’s like, well, wounded little kids, you know, in part they’re also powerful beings as the potential for greatness.

Abby (00:59:41)But I think when you bring in that perspective, it’s so easy for compassion to follow. Yeah. Yeah. 

Abby (00:59:52) Well, compassionate for yourself on T for yourself too, right? It’s like, I’m all, I’m innocent in this too. I give myself permission to have judged them. I give myself permission to, you know, to feel guilty about that.

Abby (01:00:04)  Like what can I, how many times can I allow whatever is to be, to be, and then yeah, just over and over and over. Can you just accept? Can you allow, can you, yep. No, that’s true. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I was,

Jessica (01:00:19) I was dealing with a little forgiveness bump in the road that I’ve run into with, with someone who used to be very close to me and the story it’s two years old and it came back and it felt just the same way it did when the experience happened, where it was at the the the bad end of the stick of them, them being very abusive.

Jessica (01:00:39) And I was just filled with all of these emotions. I was like, I need an external assistant right now. So I just immediately looked up a Ted talk on forgiveness. And the one, the one that I found it was, it was this, the simplest message, this wonderful person that had been through a lot in their life was like, can you think of a time where you wronged someone?

Jessica (01:00:59)  I was like, okay. And I was like, do you feel remorse? And it’s like, yeah, can you understand that the person that wronged you is probably feeling that same way. And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, does that let you open your heart a little bit more? I was like, huh. All right. Okay. But forgiveness is such an interesting topic in my perspective because it’s like if you feel like you have to forgive in order to be free.

Abby (01:01:30) Yeah. It feels like forgiveness is part of the puzzle piece, but it’s not the whole piece. It’s like, there’s the, I, I see this side of it where, you know, for me anyway, I felt like I needed to have an element of forgiveness. I was connecting with the spirit of wolves. And like when I had the whole nature is cruel and I can’t accept that thing.

Abby (01:01:51) And we’ll do like, you just gotta forgive forgiveness, you know? And when you, when you forgive you open your heart back up and then let us back in because it’s more painful. To have separateness to close off. And so if what you need at that moment is forgiveness to open your heart back up and take that.

Abby (01:02:05) And then maybe down the road, we’ll come in. We’re all in a sense. There’s nothing wrong in the first place. There’s nothing to forgive anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting because 

Jessica (01:02:15) I’m now just being forgiving as that same idea of I’d rather be free than right. So forgive us, this kind of dropping the holding onto the animosity of the pain that was given to you in that situation that you’re finding difficult time forgiving it.

Jessica (01:02:30) Can you just let go of the pain for a second and let yourself be free? And that’s maybe all forgiveness really needs to be, to release them from this view. 

Breann (01:02:42) Yeah, no, that’s true. But also let yourself get there in time, right? Like not having to rush there and not being stagnant. Like coming back into that stillness of like, you know, there are big things in my life right now that I’m, I’m on the road to forgiveness with and I’ve forgiven in certain layers and it’s like, of course, I like, I want to get to that, that freedom state.

Breann (01:03:05) So I want to say I forgive and I’ve done that a lot where I said, I forgive them and I do, but I’m lying to myself about it. There are parts, there are pieces that I haven’t healed that need to be healed for me to have that real fullness. But I think freedom exists on many layers. You can have that experience of freedom in different aspects of your being.

Breann (01:03:24) You don’t have to get to the finish line. 

Abby (01:03:27) Totally. You don’t need to jump to the destination of where you want it to be. It’s like that acceptance piece. Like I give myself permission to not forgive right now. I gave myself permission to be angry about that, to feel justified in that anger and that’s okay.

Abby (01:03:43) And yeah, and it’s really Amy Thiessen who I’m doing some kind of voice coaching work with right now. She’s a great coach in Calgary and she mentioned expectations versus permission. Or it’s like, as an example, I give myself permission to completely forgive everybody and be free right now.

Abby (01:04:02) It’s like, no, that’s an expectation. I give myself permission to be upset with this. Where can, how far can you go? Where it feels real and just stop there at that time where it feels real. And because you know as you push before you’re ready, then it becomes an expectation you’re trying to force interest.

Breann (01:04:19) Yeah, that’s good, I like that perspective. Yeah. Hm, Ooh. Yeah. Cause when you think about freedom, what is freedom really? Except just being completely at peace with all that is and just being, I don’t know, like, cause when I think about that, that feeling of acceptance when you actually get there, that feels just like that weight off that it would feel like to also be fully forgiving.

Breann (01:04:46)  Like when you’re fully allowed to be angry, it’s like, oh, that feels so good. Like when you’re fully allowed to express your woundedness, it’s amazing. But those are things that you give yourself permission to. Yeah, exactly. Self-acceptance yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Abby (01:05:07)  It’s like when the inner child gets like this behavior is not acceptable and then just gets more bottled up and more upset until there’s more another tantrum and it’s like, it’s okay for you to be angry.

Abby (01:05:18) But you don’t get to speak to people lashed out from your anger. I will be apparent to you, but it’s okay to feel this way. 

Jessica (01:05:25) Yeah, there is something wrong , she just absolutely loved that soul. And he was talking and in a lecture one time and a woman came up and said, I find it really difficult to love myself.

Jessica (01:05:36) Like I find it really difficult to live by myself. He’s like, well, that’s really understandable in, in the world that we live in. Can you just start with accepting? Can you just start by accepting yourself? And I run into a lot of people in my sessions where they know a lot about the energy centers and I’m blocked in my heart.

Jessica (01:05:51) Shocker. I can’t love myself. And it’s like, okay, well the heart space, we might view it as the center of love, but truly what it is representing is acceptance. And I try to tell them like, it’s the space that represents the element of air. Think about throwing a ball through the air. There’s nothing that inhibits that ball from moving, the air completely accepts that the ball is moving through it.

Jessica (01:06:10) It’s not loving the ball. It’s just letting it be there. It’s letting it move.

Abby (01:06:18) And that allows, and it’s just want to touch on what you said about having a hard time. The person said I’m having a hard time loving myself, and I’m talking with my, our couples therapist the other day. And she said, you know, when there’s self-loathing, it’s a child trying to reconcile in an impossible situation.

Abby (01:06:39) So, you know, as children, if our parents are behaving in a way that we don’t feel safe or loved, our mind goes to being bad and wrong. And self-loathing, and because that is more, we’re able to process that then not feeling safe with our parents who are there, who are the ones to keep, to keep us safe.

Abby (01:07:06) And so on doing part of that is that recognition of this is just where you went when you were, or not. Again, simply oversimplified. I found that it was kind of free to see it in that way. That was just my young mind trying to process that, but I can recognize now that I am safe and there’s no reason to hate myself.

Breann (01:07:29) Yeah. When you, when you say that, it reminds me of one of the sessions that I did work with you where you kind of helped me, the undefined, my parents, and, and move instead to looking at the earth as mother and the son as father and recognizing that they’ve never put any judgment on me. They’ve never liked to recognize the safety in that truth, that kind of macro truth of where I really come from.

Abby (01:07:57) Yeah. The two feel the energy of unconditionally loving mother and unconditionally loving father don’t need that to come through our parents. As we get older, we’re able to bring that in another way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jessica (01:08:16) And that even just gave me the space to understand and accept where their pain came from.

Jessica (01:08:23) Right. When I knew that I had the safety of the big bodies, the big mama and the big daddy it gave me a bit more safe space to feel into what my parents and our children were going through. 

Abby (01:08:38) Compassion. You’re able to step out of that generational pain and see what frees you, it gives you the free will to not carry it forward. Do you think that the ability to feel compassion requires a sense of safety in order, in order to be able to go into compassion

Breann (01:09:00) The visual that’s coming to me, like, it feels true to me in a way. I Wasco when I did Iowaska she kept, for example, she kept every time somebody was being sick or, or crying immediately, I left my body and went to try and tend to them. And she kept bringing me back into my body. And it was this practice of feeling safe in my body and connected and empowered in my body so that I could meet those people from that embodied state.

Breann (01:09:28) So when you say compassion without safety, to me, I feel like it’s a bit dissociated. Like if you’re not safe and in your body, you can still give that compassion, but it’s maybe not connected into the core of you. And so isn’t as potent or maybe healthy for you. 

Abby (01:09:46) I don’t know if that really resonates with me.

Jessica (01:09:48) Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Cause maybe, yeah, it’s interesting that disconnect it’s like, are you still having compassion for you or are you leaving your inner child and going to just tend to. Yeah. 

Abby (01:10:04) And I feel like that’s where we start getting into the realm of like, it feels almost like a man and compassion. Like I need to go to the other saviors and, and in doing so bypassing stuff internally.

Breann (01:10:16)  It’s complex. It’s like, oh, okay, well this isn’t. And then that’s where you know the archetype of the person who goes to try and help you with the problem you didn’t want help with. It’s like, no, no, like I just need you to hold space. But if you can’t hold yourself and be in your own body, how do you feel? Yeah. Someone else.

Abby (01:10:40) Because it’s, and then it’s easier to see the things we want to heal inside ourselves. It’s easier to see it outside of us. And so it’s part of the work. It’s part of the, one of the things that we, when we challenge beliefs and thoughts is you know, if, if the thoughts said. They betrayed me one of the ways we turned it around as I betrayed memes. So in what ways did I do that to myself? And it’s a little bit different from the compassion piece we were just talking about, but just as an example of how, what we need to try when we need to fix someone, something in someone else, if it’s a need, I need to affect you. It’s painful for me to see you not fixed. It’s like, what is, what is it that you are really wanting to heal inside yourself? Hmm. Yeah. 

Jessica (01:11:29) Self-acceptance is a mirror. 

Breann (01:11:33) Yeah. I really liked that.

Abby (01:11:35)  I feel like we’ve gotten to cover so many cool bases. I’m sorry. I feel like you’re processing something just because I don’t want to cut you off.

Jessica (01:11:42) No, I’m just I’m processing the entire conversation we’ve had. 

Abby (01:11:45) I feel like we, okay. So something that I like to kind of maybe begin wrapping up with. What is the way that you step into that place of healing or acceptance? Like if you see the view, feel out of balance, or if you see a need for healing, what do you go to?

Jessica (01:12:08) Well, what’s interesting for me lately. And are you talking on a very personal level? 

Abby (01:12:14)  Yeah. So for yourself. 

Jessica (01:12:16) Yeah. And lately, it’s been extremely physical and elemental where it’s a cold shower, it’s a cold shower. It feels like an Oscar, the being I worked with showed, and someone asking why cold showers and he was showing. That the cold and the water, that’s very feminine and very at the moment, very present. So when you get into the cold shower, you immediately have to be in your body. So it’s like, it pulls your mind from the past and the future and brings you right here. And that has been one of the most important elements of my practice lately is to get back in my body and be here, be here, stop spreading myself out so thin and feeling so frayed for lack of a better term, afraid and frayed. Like, I feel like I’m so spread out that my fibers are like E. 

Breann (01:13:08) During the beautiful hand talking as well. 

Abby (01:13:11) Yes. Yeah. We’re all energy workers. 

Jessica (01:13:13) So it’s like, and yeah, on top of that, the cold shower also creates that element of stillness. Cause I have to be in the moment and I found it very interesting the other day I was having a really hard time, but I was out tying up some grasses organizing, falling things tying these grasses.

Jessica (01:13:32)And I was like, okay, well, I’ll just do some work on myself. But I was sitting there doing physical labor while trying to work on my kidneys. And I was like, this doesn’t work, Jessica. If someone was in a session with you and they were vacuuming, you’d be like, can you please lay down? So it’s like allowing myself that stillness.

Jessica (01:13:49) And I know this has been a big theme for you lately to Breanne. Is that stillness? 

Breann (01:13:55) Yeah, that’s so beautiful. And I love that too with the kidneys. Right? Cause what do the kidneys need? They need rest. They need to hold water and cold water.

Abby (01:14:06) How about for you, Breann?

Breann (01:14:09) I think two things come to mind. The one thing is there’s this 10-minute meditation I like to do where I don’t put on any music. I don’t have any intention going into it except to be. And just to, like, I just set a timer for 10 minutes and I make myself lie there for 10 minutes.

Breann (01:14:22) And it’s a practice of just being in my body, like just physically being in my body, not going in and psychoanalyzing and be like, oh, what’s this pain. Let me try and unravel it. Like not trying to heal anything, just being in my body. And I find when I allow myself that presence for even 10 minutes, it’s just everything naturally unravels itself without me doing anything at all.

Breann (01:14:47) It’s I think for me, my tendencies in terms of my trauma have been. Like my coping mechanism was to dissociate. And so anytime I’m feeling out of balance, it’s like coming back into my physical body, just being utterly aware of my physical presence, I think is the most centering thing I can do. And then just nature is another tool that I use to do that.

Breann (01:15:11) So going for walks in nature, I have a really intimate relationship with the plant world and I talk to plants all the time. And so when I go out in nature, usually what I’ll do is I’ll talk to them, the plants or the earth or myself, whoever. And I’ll say I’ll put my music on shuffle. And when I hit it, I’m like, okay, take control of this and let these songs just guide me through wherever I need to go. And then I just walked through nature and I just stopped. And I talked to the trees and I just became present, like what you’re talking about, Jess. Like, it’s like, I become so insanely present cause I get so. 

Breann (01:15:45) Enamored by nature, like just looking at tree bark or looking at the grass or looking at Moss. I get so infatuated that I completely forget about anything across time and space.

Breann (01:15:59) It’s like, I’m just completely present with this plant and this experience. And that allows the space for me too, to be, I guess, and to return to myself.

Abby (01:16:17) Yeah. Definitely relate to connecting with nature. And it’s infinite, well, the deeper that you look into it, then some more, it opens up. For me, it’s like going back to the simplest things often. So just breathing, I just reminding myself that that’s number one and recognizing moments when I’m not doing it and how different that really feels in my body.

Breann (01:16:40) So true. Yeah. It is all of those, you know, like coming back to your breath, just sitting still with yourself, having a shower, like all of those things are such big medicine. There’s, they’re so simple. Yeah. So simple and on the mind loves to complicate things. But at the end of the day, it’s really simple.

Abby (01:17:02) So, okay. So if somebody is going through a struggle right now, if anybody out there feeling overwhelmed with pull-out polarity in the world and all of this collective processing of Jessica mentioned before we recorded the dirty laundry, it’s like, it’s all here. What do we do with it? All of this stuff, that’s coming up. What would you want to say to them right now?

Jessica (01:17:26) Well, number one is you’re 100% without a doubt, not alone in it. And you’re allowed to make space to tend to yourself. 

Breann (01:17:37) Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like that’s the same. There’s nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Like I feel you, and this is an experience that a lot of people are having in a lot of different ways and the earth is here to help us with it.

Breann (01:17:52) We’re not, we’re really not alone. There are humans and there are healers that can help. And the earth is here to help too. We have plant allies all around us that I think can really just be that support as well. If you just go out, you don’t even have to have, I don’t know. I have like a really dingy looking park right next to my house, but I go there and I’m friends with the spruce tree there and I’ll just go there and put my hands on the tree and I’ll just let, let that stuff pour out of me because the tree knows what to do with that, you know, return it back to the earth and compost.

Abby (01:18:2) And if you don’t know how to speak to trees yet, just go be with it. You’re still speaking. Yeah. Communication happens in many ways. Yeah. 

Jessica (01:18:38) Just to add a little bit to not make what you feel inside of you bad or wrong, or try to banish it, just make space to allow it. And when you allow it, it’s a lot easier to let it move. Then if you’re trying to push it away or numb it out or make it a bad thing. 

Abby (01:18:58) Yeah, exactly. That’s where it gets pushed into the shadows. What a wreath.

Breann (01:19:09) Yeah. Like the shame cave, and just like guilt in the heavy clouds that those things create. And like, resistance is so funny. Like sometimes I’ll resist something for days, weeks, months.

Breann (01:19:17) And then when I finally stop and I look at it, I’m like, I don’t need to feel ashamed about this. I don’t need to feel guilty about whatever’s coming up and I just let it be. Like I, the emotion pours out and I’m like, oh God, that was so easy. It’s healed now. Like I just needed to allow it to be innocent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica (01:19:39) Yep. Yeah. And if, if you’re trying to figure it out, like if you’re really grabbing onto it and you’re trying to figure out the answer, I recommend feeling into your awareness. That’s probably behind your eyes at that moment that you’re trying to figure it out with your brain and just imagining your awareness, like an ice cream cone on a warm summer day, and just let it melt down into your heart space.

Jessica (01:20:01) Just let yourself come back down and drop the, I need to fix this mentality and just let yourself be still like Breann said for 10 minutes, just let yourself have a moment. And I guarantee you’re going to feel at least a little bit of space to breathe after that.

Jessica (01:20:19)  Yeah, recognizing that you can shift where your awareness is in your body has been a huge step in my ability to be there for myself. Yeah. 

Abby (01:20:28)  Everything’s energy somewhere in the body. Yeah.

Breann (01:20:32) Yeah. It reminds me of, I think, when you notice your mind thinking or analyzing or whatever, just saying judging like, oh, this is what I’m doing. Like, just noticing what you’re doing and just saying it, no judgment about what you’re doing, but just like, oh, this is what I’m doing. Okay. And then every time you do it, just say it again, say it again until it’s like, oh, okay. 

Abby (01:20:54) Yeah. It’s not even like a judgemental word. It’s just like I noticed you. Okay. Awareness bringing awareness into the habit

Breann (01:21:02) Bringing awareness. Absolutely. 

Abby (01:21:05) So. And I’m a huge advocate of getting external support as well. I have gotten support from lots of healers and I can probably for the rest of my life. And so with that, if someone wants to work with either of you, what’s the best way for them to connect with you? 

Breann (01:21:26) I’m going to go for a spree.

Breann (01:21:28) Sure. The best way would probably be, I have my email Venusandchiron@gmail.com. I also have a calendar Calendly page. You can find the link for that on my Instagram, @VenusandChiron. So that would probably be the quickest, easiest way. You can also DM me on that Instagram page as well. Yeah. 

Abby (01:21:49) Awesome. And they can go and listen to your podcast there.

Breann (01:21:52) You can go listen to my podcast. That’s true too. There’s the, I created that podcast to kind of be like a free resource for people that are working through this. To be able to listen and learn some tools to develop their intuitive abilities and set boundaries and ground and things like that. So there’s lots of content there around that fantastic resource.

Jessica (01:22:14) And there’s an episode where we do some pretty intense bodywork on me. So if you want to kind of get an idea of some of the ways that Breanne can work and just how good she is at what she does, I think it was a great showcase of your strengths. Yeah. And for me, it’s Zen.lasagna on Instagram.

Jessica (01:22:31) And you just, you can shoot me a consult or shoot me an email or book a consult, and we can kind of just have a moment to figure out if, if working together feels right for you, you can talk about what’s going on. And it’s just a good way to start the conversation in terms of doing work together. So you can book a consult, even if you’re unsure, and say, okay, 

Abby (01:22:51) No pressure. No, thank you, ladies. I love you both. Thank you so much for your wisdom. 

Jessica (01:22:58) Yeah. I love you both so much. And I, I can’t stress enough. I needed this conversation today, so I love how timely it is to get together as always is, right? Yeah. 

Abby (01:23:09) Nourishing or being with your community. Yeah. 

Jessica (01:23:12) And I would love to do this again.

Breann (01:23:14) So maybe I’ll invite you guys onto the medicine show.

Abby (01:23:17)  I’d love that. I’d love to have you, ladies, on here again. Making a semi-regular thing.

Abby (01:23:23) I was going to say, I would like to do a little group get-together.

Breann (01:23:26) Cycle our pod around our pockets.

Abby (01:23:32) So many pods within a big pot. 

Jessica (01:23:37) It’s making me a picture like three little peas in a pod. 

Abby (01:23:40) Like, ah, that’s so cute. They’re just our heads. I just see Breanne’s smiling face. I was like a little pea.

Breann (01:23:48) That sweet little visual.


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