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24-Imposter Syndrome

purple banner for imposter syndrome

Imposter Syndrome

In episode 24: Imposter Syndrome, I unpack what imposter syndrome is, how to recognize if you have it, and what you can do to overcome it. And if you’re ready for imposter syndrome to stop holding you back and stealing your joy, we are focusing on overcoming imposter syndrome for all of August in the in the Mind Body Free Community. Sign up for your free trial at the link below and join us in saying goodbye to imposter syndrome so you can create and live a life you love!

Join the Community:

Connect with Abigail:
Instagram @yourmindbodyfree
Facebook @yourmindbodyfree

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Ready to heal and get your energy back?
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Full Show Transcript

Hello and welcome to the mind-body free podcast, where you will find all things healing and awakening, from evocative conversations to guided meditations to incredible insight on how to heal and regulate your nervous system, how to heal your soul and come into wholeness, and how to tap into your limitless potential and follow your purpose in this world. I am your host, Abigail Moss. I am a healer, mentor and coach trainer. I’m here to support the healing and awakening of life on earth by helping you to remember the magic of who you truly are. Thank you for being here. I hope you enjoy the show.

Hello friends, how are you doing today? Personally, I’ve just gotten over COVID, which was an interesting journey, being my first time experiencing that. Fortunately for me and my husband it wasn’t too severe. I still feel like a little bit of recovery on one day. It’s probably going to take a couple more weeks before I get everything out of my lungs. But overall I’m doing ok and happy to have my energy back and really happy to be full of antibodies for the next few months. So go lick some doorknobs, not really, but I could, but I won’t so anyway, I want to talk to you guys today about something that is an affliction that is so widespread and so unnecessary, an I’m talking about impostor syndrome, and impostor syndrome is this feeling, this nagging feeling, this voice in the head, this belief that you are going to get found out as an impostor, as a fraud, as someone who is not deserving of being in this role, this job title being perceived in this way? It’s like underneath. There’s a part of you that’s afraid you’re going to get found out, that your going to be seen and deemed unworthy or not good enough to be doing what you’re doing or even what you want to be doing? 

So impostor syndrome, how it shows up in your life. It could be you are already doing something you want to be doing and that you love, but you don’t feel like you deserve it or like you belong or like you’re going to be able to keep doing it, like you feel like you’re going to be found out. Another way it can show up is preventing you from even stepping into attempting to get that promotion or do that work you really love, or maybe take a training to become someone else, something else. You know it your career to do something that’s more purposeful. It can prevent you from doing that and it can show up as avoidance, as you know, thinking about it, thinking a lot about it, but then just not taking action or getting really close and finally getting that big break that you want. Maybe you’ve been trying to get a certain kind of writing gig and you make a contact and it could make a lot of changes for you. But then you don’t follow-up it’s this sort of self sabotaging behavior that is a symptom of impostor syndrome. 

I hear it talked about quite a bit quite prevalent and it’s talked about in a way that would assume that it’s just an affliction like some sort of incurable disease. I laugh at that because it’s not. It’s incurable and it’s a common thing that so many of us deal with. But you can a 100% absolutely break through it and it doesn’t have to take years to do that. So the reason we have in poster syndrome is quite simply on a subconscious level, beginning very likely from childhood. We don’t believe that we are good enough and not feeling good enough is a very, very common thing. So when we are younger, when we’re little children, we don’t have the ability to rationalize. So we perceive the way others behave as a reflection of our own value. So if we’re little and someone isn’t around, say our parents are busy working or absent or dealing with their own struggles, not there to give us the care and attention that we crave, our minds subconsciously would could deduce that they’re not around. They’re not around because I’m not enough. 

I’m not enough for them or I’m not good enough. I didn’t get chosen for the soccer team because I’m not good enough in that moment. Boom, a subconscious belief is formed. Not good enough, not enough, and that hangs out in the subconscious in the background, where we’re not even consciously thinking about it. It hangs out in our subconscious mind throughout our whole life, until we go and update that belief from when we were very young. So most of us are walking around with beliefs that we formed about our own identity from the time we were four or 56 younger, even babies. It might be worth while to update those beliefs. They could use some improvement, and how we do that is through going into the subconscious. There’s something called hypnosis, which is just becoming very relaxed and very aware. We go into the subconscious and in your subconscious you have stored every experience you’ve ever been through. All of your memories are stored there and all of your core beliefs around your own self-worth your place in the world, about the world at large. 

All of these very, very poor, hugely influential beliefs are stored in your subconscious mind and how we shift those as we go back to the moment of their creation through the subconscious mind. Your mind is able to access those memories safely and easily with proper guidance, and we go back there and we find that part of you that younger you who didn’t feel loved or cared for or wanted, or enough or worthy or good enough. We find that younger and we gave them love and we explain to them that of course they are enough. We all are. Just because no mom or dad was busy at work, didn’t mean that they weren’t enough, didn’t mean that they weren’t loved and wanted, or just because their older brother was really good at sports doesn’t mean that they’re but they’re not also full of incredible gifts in this world that they could create and do and be whoever they want. 

So as the adult we have the compassion and understanding as the inner child. We are in a place where we don’t we can’t rationalize and we often get caught in the past with these beliefs, these painful experiences that form these beliefs. So we go back to that moment of the past as the loving adult and bring healing to the inner child and we remind them that you are enough. Of course you are anyone who has a child or a niece or nephew or you know someone in their life they care for, or even a fresh baby. You would look at their eyes, look into their eyes and you would never see that baby is not good enough. You would never say that baby is an impostor. It’s ridiculous, but yet we hold on to these beliefs from when we’re very young and we allow them to have massive influence in our well being and in our lives. These subconscious beliefs form the thoughts that form the behaviors and emotional responses that cause us the self sabotage that caused us to not go for what we really want in life. 

They cause us to play small and to keep ourselves small, but they don’t have to. It’s not necessary. So in order to overcome an impostor syndrome, we need to access the part of us that doesn’t believe we are enough or that we’re good enough. We need to go back to the inner child, we need to bring them healing, and that is how we step through. That’s how we step into our truth, the truth being that you are, you always have been, and you always will be more than enough, and there’s nothing that can change that. We never look at a tree in the forest and say it’s not good enough. We never look at our, our animal companion or dog or cat or something else and say they’re not good enough. That’s it’s preposterous and it’s equally preposterous to say that about ourselves or each other as human beings. We are all worthy of being here. We are all worthy of following our dreams and our passions, of figuring things out. So if this is something that you have struggled with, this feeling of being an impostor, of feeling afraid, you’re going to get found out and deemed unworthy of self sabotaging behavior, where you don’t take action to get that promotion. Follow that big win, even in a healthy relationship, if you start sabotaging that, if you find your relationship that isn’t loving and nurturing and kind, and these are all symptoms of a subconscious belief, that’s not true. And the good news is you 100% can update those beliefs and I can help you. So that leads me to next month, August, we have a new theme in the mind-body free community. 

It’s a membership community that you can join for 30 days free of charge and get access to four incredible healing classes. So we’re all about overcoming Imposter Syndrome in August, when you come and when you join, you can come and be part of this immersive, incredible healing group experience, where we go back and we heal up part of our younger self and we bring in love. We bring in the truth, knowing that we’re enough and we integrate that part of ourselves back into holiness with the rest of us, and that frees you to then have this incredible confidence and esteem, knowing that you’re enough exactly as you are, and from there you can create and do anything from a place of already feeling worthy.

Because knowing you’re worthy doesn’t make you less effective. It doesn’t take away an edge, I have heard some people say. Not feeling good enough gives me an edge to push more and do more. That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but it is not feeling good enough stops you from seeing the deeper purpose and path in your own life. It stops you from moving forward on that path. You can end up grinding and grinding away and sabotaging left-right in the centre and then getting more, but still not feeling satisfied with what you’ve worked so hard to create. Because if you don’t feel like you, you are enough inside. Nothing outside of you is going to make you feel like it’s enough. Nothing outside of you is going to be enough period. The only way to feel enough to feel satiated, to feel fulfilled is inside. It’s looking at what’s going on within you and healing those parts of you that don’t feel whole. So that’s something that you would like to do so that you can create a life you live and actually enjoy it. Then come and join us. We are having our next healing transformation session on overcoming impostors syndrome on Thursday, August fourth, and it’s going to be an incredible experience. We have more classes throughout the month, Janet Lee is going to be teaching therapeutic Gong, which is all about healing the body, integrating what we experience and feeling more energy, more strength, more vitality, more clarity that she’s teaching every couple of weeks. And then I’m going to be doing a follow-up class integrating all of this incredible transformation that we go through. 

So I hope to see you there. The community is a place for people who are sensitive, for people who want authentic connection, people who want to grow exponentially, to heal and let go of all of these things that kept them. Being small, community is for you. If that’s what you’re looking for and you can learn more at mine, body free dot com, you can sign up for a free 30 day. Incredibly, you will also find a beautiful, heart centered community there and lots of healing resources. So I encourage you to come check it out, realize that you can do anything you want to do, you can be anyone you want to be, you can create a life. You love and actually enjoy it. We’ve seen lots of people who create abundance and wealth and who are successful, quote on quote, based on the idea of having lots of financial wealth. However, a lot of them, you can tell, are unhappy. They’re always trying to make more. They’re not being kind to other people. It’s all about making more and more and more and more, because they don’t believe inside that they are enough, and so we don’t have to partake in that insanity. We can find freedom from that trap.

And the way you do that is always inside. It starts in you, so I hope to see there. If you have any questions to me, a comment you can send me. You can find me on Ingram and facebook at your mind-body free, and I would love to hear from you. I’d love to hear impostor syndrome shows up in your life and I love you to think about what would be available to me if I didn’t have that. What would letting go impostor syndrome make available to me? How would my life be different? I’d love you to start thinking about that, because that’s going to start opening up a whole new, incredible world for you. Okay, so go to my body free! Dotcom sign up for the 30 day free trial. Mister for the event and if you can’t make it live, that is okay. You can watch the replay within the community, but you have to join the community to access the replay. I can’t wait to see you there. It’s going to be incredible and together, let’s grow, evolve and realize our limitless potential.Learn more about our healing community for highly sensitive people here.

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23- Abundance

Episode 23 Create Abundance
Create Abundance Abby Taylor


In episode 23: Create Abundance, I share my journey of releasing my abundance blocks and the incredible changes this created in my life. I also share how I did it, how you can get started, and a FREE event coming up on July 9th!

Join the Mind Body Free Community:

Connect with Abigail
Instagram @yourmindbodyfree
Facebook @yourmindbodyfree
Tiktok @yourmindbodyfree


Mind Body Free Podcast Love

Are you subscribed? If not, there’s a chance you could be missing out on some bonuses and extra show tools.  Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify to be sure you’re in the loop.  

Do you love the show? If so, I’d love it if you left me a review on iTunes. This helps others find the show and get integrative healing support. Simply click here and select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review”. Thank you so much ❤︎

Looking for more support?
Learn more about our healing community for highly sensitive people here.


Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:01) Hello. Welcome to the Mind Body Free Podcast. I am your host, Abigail Moss. I help highly sensitive people heal in mind, body, and spirit so they can connect with their purpose and share the gifts that are so needed in this world. And I’m here to talk to you today about abundance, money, wealth, the energy of it, the flow of it, or the lack thereof. Money and abundance are concepts on the other side of scarcity. And it’s such a prevalent thing that I see in the world, and especially in communities, among artists, and healers. It can be this starving artist mindset or starving monk mindset. And I’ve been through that when I grew up. I’ve done a lot of work on this.

Abby (00:00:55) Growing up for me, I inherited all kinds of limiting beliefs around money. Like there’s never enough and just a lot of fear around, I don’t know what to do. We don’t have enough. It’s never going to be enough. Just a lot of feelings of insecurity around that. And so I grew up with that belief and I made just enough for myself. I may have just enough to get by, but never too much or more than enough. And sometimes I felt like not enough, even though they’re always actually enough. And eventually, I was doing some journeying and connecting with my purpose, my future self, and what I wanted to create in the world, the life that I wanted to have. So I had written out this life that I wanted for myself, and as I was looking at it, I realized I’m going to have to make more money to create this life.

Abby (00:01:55) And to make more money, I’m going to have to do some work on this. I’m going to have to do some inner work because the outer world is a reflection of the inner world. And so as I continued doing more training and building out my skills with hypnotherapy and other techniques and tools, something that I focused on to heal within myself was my blocks to abundance, because it got to a point where it was stressful, where I was feeling limited in doing the training that I wanted to do and traveling to places I wanted to go and upgrading my kitchen, living in a part of the city that I felt safe and comfortable in and inspired in.

Abby (00:02:40) I wanted to do all of that, but I felt restricted by money. So I did some work on it. I received some hypnotherapy sessions. I went through this immersive course where I listen to these recordings to clear away abundance blocks, and I listen to these sorts of recordings for about eight months. And I would go to bed and I put the recording on. I would close my eyes and I would just clear and clean and clear so much, so many blocks that I had and my body would shake. Sometimes tears streamed down my cheeks and I was just part of the release, just energetically letting it go from not only my subconscious mind but also from my body. And so when I did that, things started changing, my business started growing, I started having these amazing referrals coming in and it gave me the momentum to then do more work in my business, to then be more visible.

Abby (00:03:43) It just gave me a sense of confidence and esteem that I needed at that time to build my practice. And with that, more and more things started changing and leading to today where I’m teaching people to become healers. I have a coach training program, and I have a membership program where people can come and heal, which I’m excited to speak about later. But a lot has changed. We moved my husband and me and our dogs to a part of the city that is beautiful. That is right next to a huge forest, which is exactly what we wanted to be near nature. And now we can walk into those forests every day. It is right across the street. We live in a home that we love. It’s a beautiful home and I feel inspired every time I wake up in it.

Abby (00:04:32) And I love having friends and family fill it up. So life is very different now and I’m grateful that I did that work to clear away those abundance blocks because on the other side of those blocks is infinite possibility, where anything is possible, where I learned how to create, what I want to manifest, what I want in my life, and to let go of what I don’t want. So I do believe that as we let go of those limiting beliefs and energetic blocks from our mind and body and spirit and open up to receive the abundance around us and realize the abundance that flows within us and through us and from us, then we are able to not only be happier and live a life that feels more aligned with our values and joys. But I feel we’re also able to be of greater service.

Abby (00:05:33) And this one’s important to me because I’m a healer and I want to help a lot of beings in this world while I’m here. And I know that for me, the more that abundance that flows into my life, the more that I can then support and be in service. It enables me access to resources and coaches and education that then allows me to grow my practice and help others in an even bigger way and support even more people. So it’s a really beautiful thing. It’s a flow in and a flow out. Just like everything in life. With every inhale, there is an exhale with every gift that we also receive. And some people are good at giving, and some people are good at receiving, but it needs to go back and forth. It needs to be a flow. And that’s the balance that the harmony that we come into. And abundance is a part of that and money is a part of that, too.

Abby (00:06:31) Money and energy. It’s a form of energy, and it’s the kind of relationship that we have with it. So if you think about money as a person, what kind of relationship do you have with money? Is it something that you think about? Is it something that you worry about? Is it something that you think is the root of all evil or never around enough? I need to grab, hold onto it and just really try to grasp it. Do you think about money if a person wouldn’t want to hang out with you? You know, if you take it out to dinner, are you cool? Are you needy? Are you standoffish? Are you resentful? What’s that relationship like? If you want to have more of that relationship if you want them to be money, to be more present in your life. We want it to be a happy, beautiful relationship based on understanding and appreciation.

Abby (00:07:29) If your relationship with money is not like that, hey, no judgment I. It wasn’t for me for most of my life. If you have some baggage around it, then I encourage you to look at that, to explore what are the thoughts that come up when I think about money. And you can write them down. Writing down thoughts is a great way to bring them into conscious awareness as well as get them out of your head. Sometimes just becoming aware of it is enough for it to dissolve, but it’s also a great step for beginning to release that. Some thoughts that can, you know, fly around with money is there’s never enough. It’s not available to me. Everyone else can make it, but I can’t. I’m not good enough, not worthy of receiving it. Money is the root of all evil.

Abby (00:08:20) It’s ego. It’s vain. It’s not good to want or care about money or think about money. People who have money are mean and bad. Oh, well, that’s why you think. Why would you ever want to do that? Right. So it’s just some thoughts that can fly around as far as beliefs and limiting beliefs and mindsets around money can be. This is a great space to begin getting awareness, and then we want to question those thoughts. Well, is it true that people that make money or bad can think of some good people to be Melinda Gates, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? They’re doing some cool stuff. You know, maybe you can think of some other different people. Warren Buffett, incredible philanthropist, and the richest man in the world began to challenge those beliefs.

Abby (00:09:10) Is it true that there’s never enough? I mean, it seems like there’s a lot of money in the world. Hmm. Interesting. Look at those beliefs. Question them, bring them onto paper, bring them into your conscious awareness so that you can then question them. Otherwise, they just hang out in the subconscious mind. And even though we’re not thinking about them or aware of them, they really kind of run the show as far as our behaviors and feelings go. So if we have beliefs like that in the background, in our subconscious mind, they will actually cause us in ways to behave, that can self-sabotage, that cannot take action on the things that we kind of really want. It can cause us to hold ourselves back. And if you ever wonder why, why is it I’m always broke or why is it there’s never enough? Or How did I end up in this situation?

Abby (00:10:05) Again, I’m going to tell you, my friend, it is those subconscious beliefs. And the good news is that you can 100% clear and release them and step into empowering, freeing, expansive, abundant beliefs. I did. Lots of people do. You can do it. And if you would like some support with that, we have an event coming up in the mind-body free community. So I’m going to switch gears for a moment and I’m going to come back to that. So I want to tell you about the mind body free community. So it is a membership community that we have just launched and I’m so excited to share this with you throughout July. You can sign up to receive a free trial for 30 whole days, 30 whole days. That means you’re going to get access to four live events. Normally we do one event a week, but because last weekend was a holiday weekend, we have two back-to-back with me and then Jeanette Lee, who is going to be teaching qigong.

Abby (00:11:11) The mind-body free community is a place for highly sensitive people to come together to heal and mind body, and spirit with each other and discover our limitless potential. It is a beautiful, heart-centered space. We have weekly, live and recorded classes in case you can’t make it live. And there are healing resources there. There’s video exercises and hypnotherapy and shamanic journeys, audio recordings you can listen to, to grow and heal. And there are beautiful people there. If you would like to join, you can go to Mind-Body Free. Dot com. You can learn more about it. You can sign up there. And each month we have a new theme and the classes are going to be based around that theme. So July. Guess what an abundance month is?

Abby (00:12:07) And we’re going to be doing some amazing work on clearing away the limiting beliefs that held you back, stepping into the energy of abundance, the energy of money, transforming that to be a beautiful, liberating relationship so that you can stop feeling held back by money so that you can let go of money. Stress takes up so much bandwidth to be worrying and thinking about and stressing about money. And it’s not necessary. And when you’re thinking stressful, worrisome thoughts, that’s what you’re putting out to the world. That’s what you’re manifesting more of. So when you learn how to let those go, you start putting different things out to them, out into the world, and different things start coming back to you. So our abundance class, the first class, is coming up on Saturday, July 9th, and it’s going to be at 9:30 a.m. Mountain Daylight Time, if you can make it live.

Abby (00:13:03) Amazing. It’s going to be very powerful if you can’t still come to join the community and you can watch the record and you can still get an incredible full immersive experience that way, too. And the next day, because it’s going to be a special double event weekend, Jeanette Lee will be teaching qigong. She teaches a very therapeutic healing form of qigong that’s healing for the body. It helps you regain your energy, your sense of well-being, your sense of strength and wellness. So she teaches every other Sunday at 10:30 a.m. Mountain Time. And again, those classes are recorded. If you come in, you come in live. She’s really great at kind of tailoring things to what people need, so she’ll check in energetically with each student, find out where they’re at, and then she’ll really bring what’s needed most to that class.

Abby (00:13:57) So amazing, amazing value, you guys. And then I’m going to be teaching the following week. It’s going to be an integration call. When we come back, we do some more clearing and sharing about what kind of things came up around abundance. And we do some really beautiful work that will help you connect in the community. I’m so, so excited about this. I’m excited about helping you guys create more abundance in your life and let go of financial stress and worries. And I’m excited for you to be able to join this beautiful, heart centered community of highly sensitive people, of intuitive people, you know. And as highly sensitive people, we are wired differently. 20% of the population in humans and a bunch of other different species are nervous.

Abby (00:14:48) The system is wired differently where we take in more information in our nervous system and we’re more sensitive, which is a blessing. It means we have a heightened sense of awareness and when we learn how to navigate it, it can be a really powerful, beautiful thing. If you are somebody who works with people as a healer or teacher or guide in some way, or if you are a leader or a visionary or a writer, you have this ability to tap into an energetic flow of profound wisdom. And a lot of the only downside is that because we’re sensitive, we also take on more stuff, all the energy and the frenetic energy and chaos in the world, and that can be overwhelming and other people’s emotions and can be a lot.

Abby (00:15:37) So it’s really important as highly sensitive people to learn how to navigate this and release that from our nervous systems so that we can hear that inner wisdom and allow it to come through. So this is a community, guys, for you. It’s a community for highly sensitive people for RSPs to come together and heal and discover our superpowers because the world needs a lot of sensitive people. The world needs more healers, more visionaries, more creatives, because there’s messages and wisdom that wants to come through you at this time in the world where so much is changing and people are looking for guidance and support, abundance is happening all through the month of July. It is going to be amazing and amazingly, you can sign up for free for 30 whole days, only for the month of July.

Abby (00:16:34) So if you want to be a part of it, go to You can learn more about how it all works. You can click on join and you can sign up for a whole. And I would love to see you in class. I would love to support you and grow with you and have your energy part of our community. So thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions, you can reach out. I’m on Instagram and Facebook at your mind-body free and I would love to see you there. Wishing you endless abundance and infinite possibilities. Thank you so much. Talk next time.


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21-Davina Palik

davina palik episode photo portrait
Davina Palik Ep Banner image

Davina Palik

Davina Palik completed the Mentorship program last year and she shares with us her journey of healing, stepping into her medicine, and moving with her family from Quebec, Canada to Samara, Costa Rica, where she and her partner Daniel guide people through transformative breathwork sessions.

Connect with Davina:
Instagram: @davinakudish


Mind Body Free Podcast Love

Are you subscribed? If not, there’s a chance you could be missing out on some bonuses and extra show tools.  Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify to be sure you’re in the loop.  

Do you love the show? If so, I’d love it if you left me a review on iTunes. This helps others find the show and get integrative healing support. Simply click here and select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review”. Thank you so much ❤︎

Looking for more support?
Schedule a free discovery call here
Learn more about the Medicine Within Mentorship Program here.


Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:00) Hello and welcome to the Mind-Body Free Podcast. I’m your host, Abigail Moss, and today I am here with a friend who I’ve gotten to know from two different worlds, both photography and now healing too. So I’m with Davina Palik today, and she is a Breathwork facilitator, a journaling coach, and a retired destination wedding photographer. She’s the proud author of exactly one child’s book holder of a Bachelor’s Degree in Journalism, a mindful mama writer, share and path feminist, humanist, humanist.

Abby (00:00:33) Ask the recovering, perfectionist, creative, and storyteller. She shares her journey, which has included everything from journaling to breathwork to plant medicines, to show others that they can heal. She values vulnerability and authenticity and is called to hold a safe space to create and isn’t constantly expanding her toolbox to do this. Davina lives in Costa Rica with her partner Daniel, her son Max, and her daughter, Charlie. Welcome, Divina. Thank you for being here. Thank you.

Davina (00:01:05) Very excited to be here.

Abby (00:01:07) Yes. And this is so cool because we used to know each other in the world of wanting photography, like for so long ago. It seems like now. Yeah. Like another lifetime. And now you are living in another part of the world. Now you are doing this beautiful, healing work with your partner, Daniel. Tell us a little bit about your journey. What brought you here from where you were before?

Davina (00:01:41) My goodness, what a question.

Abby (00:01:45) All little questions today. Yeah.

Davina (00:01:48) Oh, my. I don’t even know where to begin. So many things. I mean, I had I kind of grew up with this big wound that needed healing. I think it was I was the I was sexually abused as a young girl. And I think I just. It’s my whole life. Part of my mission was to heal from that, and I think I just didn’t know it or didn’t consciously realize that. But so much of what? Presented itself in my life or was a result of these wounds. And yeah, I. I did a lot of healing without even consciously realizing it, but. Eventually through. Other things, I guess in life I realized I got into healing more intentionally, I guess.

Davina (00:02:43) As things came up and I was seeking something. Something more, something deeper. And I had struggled with depression for a long time. And I was looking for. More than just being on medication and that kind of found spirituality and ayahuasca through that and then eventually breathwork and that journaling was a big tool for me. So I used a lot of that and just kind of picked up all these tools along the way and eventually moved to Costa Rica, which was unexpected, but kind of I felt very called to this place and ended up here.

Davina (00:03:24) So the journey continues. We’re in a place now where people say that the town where we live called Samarra is a place where people come to heal. And again, I didn’t move here knowing that, but I see it in the people that I meet, people who are on similar journeys, the types of offerings that other people have intuitive folks who are meeting here who are helping me heal as well. And so yeah, that’s the overview, I guess. Yeah.

Abby (00:03:59) Yeah. Oh, man. And, and it’s wild because we were chatting a bit before and I was mentioning how last time we met like this online, just the two of us, it was like just before the mentorship started.

Davina (00:04:16) And it must have been about a year ago.

Abby (00:04:17) You’re still.

Davina (00:04:18) Doing.

Abby (00:04:19) About a year ago. Yeah. Yeah. And now you’re. You move from Montreal to Samarra. I didn’t know that. It’s a place people come to heal. That’s beautiful. It’s like, almost. Go ahead.

Davina (00:04:33) No, it’s something one of my friends who’s been here for ten years told me. She says there’s kind of like this energy here and that people come to feel.

Abby (00:04:46) Do you think that there’s like a calling for that right now in the world?

Davina (00:04:51) Yeah. I think I’m proof of that. I think. I didn’t think through the mentorship with you. One of the big lessons I received was that from my higher self essentially was that I had medicine to offer. And I remember having so much resistance to that being like, What do you mean? I don’t have any medicine to offer. I’m not special in any way. And then I got comfortable sharing more and more, and I use Instagram to share my experiences have been. And I’ve shared my healing journey from the sexual trauma on my website. And the more I share, the more people reach out to me with their own stories or just looking for someone to connect with.

Davina (00:05:44) And it’s almost every day that I have a message in my inbox from somebody who’s like, just relates to something that I’ve shared who just wants to connect or wants to share their own thing or wants to run something by me sometimes, you know, just it’s incredible. And I think I see it from these people who reach out to being and how much healing is a collective thing that we are searching for healing. And there are so many beautiful ways to do that. It doesn’t have to be just one road. And hopefully, I can show people that there are different tools and you don’t have to go to the Amazon and drink Ayahuasca either. So that is a marvelous tool. So yeah, it’s I see that there is indeed a need and I’m encouraged by how much people are seeking their healing and taking it into their own hands. And I think it’s something that we need.

Abby (00:06:43) Yeah. Did you feel? Like. As you mentioned, you’ve been sharing a lot of your journey and your healing path. And I remember, you know, not that long ago and still, sometimes it’s almost like there can be this feeling of taboo around not being like fully feeling fully perfect all the time. And I don’t know a single person that does this like shame around the concept of mental, emotional, and physical well-being. Did you find that it took courage for you to share, or is that something you were always comfortable with?

Davina (00:07:24) It’s a good question and I’m grateful for the opportunity to reflect on it now. I kind I think in a way I’ve always been comfortable sharing. Especially when it came to what happened to me as a child. It was some of the other things, maybe. Ways that I still struggle with things or that stuff that I. Feel is harder or has been harder to share. I put in my bio that I’m a recovering perfectionist and it’s something I struggle with a lot is like, what if I’m not seen as perfect? And I feel like the sexual trauma was always like, apart from me, in a way, separate from me. Like it was something that had happened to me, but that I didn’t feel like.

Davina (00:08:17) You know, I, I felt comfortable sharing it for that reason, I guess, whereas like the workings of my, into my inner mind and the ways maybe that it affected me, I would have been a little bit more hesitant to share because of how they might reflect on me, you know? Yeah. And even today, I have moments where I’m like Am I being in mine? Am I trying to protect some part of myself by not sharing this? And is it worth exploring that? And is it worth opening up to the world about this? Because someone could relate. And I feel like that is my medicine is being like, here I am and you’re welcome in this space, too. And if you relate to this, you’re not alone. Yeah.

Abby (00:09:04) That’s beautiful. And it’s. I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Davina (00:09:07) No, I was just thinking about how you had said one time, like, all of me is welcome here. That was or all of you are welcome here. I feel like this came up in our mentorship. And it’s something I journaled about the other day and it came out, like, quite beautiful. I think I’m getting ready to share that one soon about how I’ll. Yeah, all of me is welcome here. I can face all these parts of me, the ugly parts, the spiritual parts, the parts that I think I’m supposed to be over by now. Surely I know better than this. And guilt. Shame, you know.

Davina (00:09:42) Greediness, like the stuff that’s the stuff that’s harder for me to share because it’s, you know, it’s the. The shadow parts, you know, but are harder to admit to. But the more we do that and in safe spaces and for me even publicly owning that I think there’s a lot of power in that. And they kind of that’s how you shed light on it and also how you connect to others who can relate.

Abby (00:10:13) Yeah, I think so too. I think that’s it’s wise and it’s really brave to do that. And it’s, you know when I think about social media and how it’s like this so often this highlight reel of the best version of ourselves and all of these apps to transform the way we look. And it’s like it feels like the antidote to that. Like just how real can I be in something I like that you mentioned could it help someone relate I like that as a question as like could this help someone relate and what they’re going through to feel less alone or with where they’re at? And was it Brené Brown that said, we all have shame and the less we talk about it, the more we have? And it’s just taking the shadow and bringing it. Yeah, we can bring the shadow into the light then. It may not be as scary as we once thought it was. It just takes some brave people to be the first to do that. And then someone else can say, Hey. Oh, yeah, me too. Oh, I thought that was just me. It wasn’t just.

Davina (00:11:17) Me.

Abby (00:11:19) Yeah. So you mentioned plant medicines. I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Davina (00:11:25) No, sorry.

Abby (00:11:25) We have a bit of a delay.

Davina (00:11:26) It’s probably my Costa Rica Internet.

Abby (00:11:29) Oh, do we? That’s okay. That’s a good trade-off for being an amazing place. You had mentioned plant medicines being part of your healing journey and also how there are other ways to kind of access these healing states. Can you tell me a bit about what plant medicines were like for you and what you found afterward to continue healing?

Davina (00:11:57) Yeah. So for me, it was I who went in with so much fear. So much fear and the experience shed light on how much fear I have had and have around a lot of different things, trying new things, losing control. The list goes on and on. So that was one of the big, big lessons that I got from ayahuasca. I also got to see how far I had come on my healing journey with regards to the sexual abuse in that I got to heal. I had an experience where I witnessed the house where all of this had taken place. I was kind of floating above it and I got to with my love. And at first, it was very scary and it was like tightening around me. The energy felt very scary. And then. I realized that I had the power to release it and to give it love and to. It was in my control, essentially. And so I started giving love to the space and a garden, and I started visualizing this garden, growing over it.

Davina (00:13:13) And it was just beautiful, wild vines. And I just got to watch my masterpiece, what my love and my forgiveness and my intention of setting the space free, what I had been able to do. And that was just like one of the first things I experienced on the first night. One of the other nights, I got to see myself as a young child sitting on the couch with my grandfather while he was abusing me. The scene that I replayed in my head so many times is something that happened many times in my childhood, and I was witness to that. And instead of feeling sorry for my child self, I kind of was like, I know she’s going to be okay. And like, she’s, she’s good. Like, she’s got this. And then I saw him and felt compassion for him.

Davina (00:14:09) And to me that was huge. It just showed me how far I had come through all these other things I’ve done in my life to bring healing. To this event. And. That specific moment showed me that I had. Reached something very difficult to reach, which is to have compassion for the person who hurt you most. So that was a powerful experience. And. A lot of other stuff. I could probably go on for like four or 5 hours about all the things that happened during that week. But when I did that with medicine, when I came back, it was very difficult. Like I will say, I was not prepared for how hard it was. I went through like really tough depression, one of the hardest I’ve ever experienced. And I felt like I was still broken and something was wrong with me.

Davina (00:15:09) And Daniel was like, we had gone together and he was just I’ve never seen him so, like, elated and high on life and attracting all this beautiful energy and connection with people. He was just it was obnoxious to me about how great he seemed compared to how I felt that I was doing. And I was like, Would you please stop smiling all the time, you know? But no, thankfully, he knows how to hold space and was very supportive. But yeah, I just struggled a lot and it was short it was around that time that we came here to Costa Rica and ended up spending three and a half months only to realize that this is where we wanted to call home. And I think since that period, I haven’t this was a year ago now, is that right? Yea, yea, yea. I haven’t experienced the darkness of depression in the way that since then really that that deep darkness. I have a different relationship with it and I think that. The magic that I witnessed with ayahuasca and afterward through different things like breathwork and other things that we’re able to get me to that state, I feel like I can’t.

Davina (00:16:30) Go back to such deep darkness when I’ve seen so much light. Because I know that I’m not made of darkness. And I think that was my fear before. That’s something I kind of believed ever since I was a child. But there was so much darkness in me and to have connected with the light allowed me to balance that out. We can have darkness, we can have a shadow, we can experience it. But it’s not what we are made of. And I feel like now that I know that through my lived experiences, something that nobody could ever take away from me, as much as someone might want to debate me on it, you know, it’s like I just I know what’s true for me. And one of the things we did a lot during the mentorship with you was to connect to that our higher self and go deep within to find what truth is and what truth feels like. And now that I have that tool, I feel like it’s a lot easier to use that voice to guide me versus, you know, all the other archetypes and ego and all these other things that try to get in the way.

Abby (00:17:36) Hmm. That’s so beautiful. There are so many things I want to speak to about what you just said. So with. And with the light in the dark. It’s it’s interesting. So I feel like I mean I was taught in Chinese medicine is the yin yang symbol where there’s the light side and the dark side and there’s the thought of light in the dark. And I thought of dark and the light. And they said, there’s always light with dark and always dark with light. And I think so much of it is just forgetting the light and remembering the light inside of us that we’re made of. I love that you said something that now that you’ve experienced can’t be taken from you. It’s such an interesting thing that to me that sounds like it’s integration. It’s like not a concept in your mind, but it’s something that you experience and knows for yourself.

Davina (00:18:27) No. And I think that very I think that right away after the experience, the ego does try to get in the way and the mind tries to get in the way. Like maybe it was all bullshit. Maybe, you know, yeah, you made that up or it’s just like a dream or like, you know, and then you try to explain it to people and they don’t necessarily understand. So you do try to like it. Find reasons why. Maybe it wasn’t what you thought it was at the moment. And that’s why I think that other practices can be really helpful, like getting back to a place of bliss during breathwork that I’ve experienced with ayahuasca was like, Oh, remember this state, it is true, it exists. And dreams. Dreams are so powerful too. And I’ve spoken to me so much since my ayahuasca experience and all of these things come into to remind me at least, that that it was was real.

Abby (00:19:29) Yeah. I remember that, though, for sure. And it’s and also being in a society where a lot of people are not in that place yet or haven’t known don’t necessarily believe in that world beyond the obvious physical things in front of us. And you mentioned coming back to those states of bliss with Breathwork. So what has that been like for you?

Davina (00:19:57) It’s so cool that Breathwork is such a big part of my life now because I didn’t choose it. And that’s like something I was to it’s ironic. I was seeking to surrender more, which sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. I wanted to be able to surrender more in my life and to let things in. And I didn’t know what that even looked like. What do you mean? Like you don’t make choices and then push towards achieving your goals. It just went against everything I have kind of done up until now in my life. And this just Breathwork was such a powerful practice for me and I have had such great experiences with it. And then I saw just one day I was like, I don’t know, maybe I would like to be facilitated in this. Maybe something I would like to be reading.

Davina (00:20:44) It seems like it could suit me well and something nobody is doing out here in Samara. So I went online to see different things and there was this one class, it was self-paced, which is really what I was looking for because I wanted to take my time. I was feeling very introverted at that moment and I wanted to have something I could work on on my own, kind of like a retreat and work on this thing. And a lot of these other classes were in-person training and stuff, so I thought that would lend itself well to me, and it just seemed like it came into my awareness for a reason. So I signed up. It was a six-month program.

Davina (00:21:23) I finished it in like maybe three months. I was so into it. And then Daniel around the same time did his training, but he did something different. He did a specific method of breathwork, whereas I did a more general training. And then we started to like it was funny because even though we started at different times and worked on them at different times, we both of us got our official certification letter on the same day, which was a total coincidence and interesting.

Abby (00:21:52) Yeah.

Davina (00:21:53) And then we started doing these ceremonies together. We’re doing the method that he was trained in, which is called Elemental Rhythm, and I kind of support him. I lead the opening meditations, I do the connecting to the light that you taught us in our mentorship. So get everybody nice and relaxed. And then moving into this, this practice, it’s very active breathwork so you’re doing these heavy, deep breathing, different patterns of it, and we guide along with music and then some breath holds. And then the whole experience, the whole breathing experience lasts only about 30 minutes, but the whole experience is about 2 hours because there’s so there’s a long meditation at the end and some integration time and then we share.

Davina (00:22:46) And it’s just incredible to see the experiences that people can have. It’s just and here in Samara, you know, people are here to heal. We see it a lot through the people who pop into our class. And we have regulars already, even though we’ve only been doing this like several times now, people who come every week and who have a different experience every week, and there’s a lot of people who come out here to experience plant medicine as well. So they might do, Oh, some people facilitate blood flow out here. And so they go to this complete ego, death and reaching, you know, like a near-death experience. And then they come to Breathwork a couple of days later and they’re able to go back to that place just through Breathwork, which is incredible. And I’ve seen people have memories of childhood memories come up, relationships that are being called to be healed, that are coming up, and the memories that they’re being shown related to somebody in their life with who they then feel called to reconnect with or. You name it.

Davina (00:23:49) I feel like we’ve already seen it and we’ve only just begun. So it’s such a beautiful, powerful practice for accessing all kinds of things. And recently my parents came to visit and then my sister and her partner came to visit. And so my dad, who I would have never imagined would be interested, came to one of our classes. And so, yeah, it was incredible to have him like come and do the breathing. And I saw him working hard and it was the first class that I assisted Daniel with, which was cool. And then afterward, like even my mom was like, Wow, he’s so white, he feels like a different person. And I was like, Yeah, transformation comes in all sorts of different ways. He might not have had much to report on in terms of the experience, but something happened because I could feel it. We could all feel it just being around him and yeah, it’s cool to be able to share that now with people in my life as well.

Abby (00:24:46) That’s so beautiful. What a beautiful blend with the breathwork that Daniel is leading them through. And then this extra layer of intention and connection sounds like integration afterward as well that you help guide them through. It’s incredible and so beautiful to be able to offer that to people in your life, especially people who you wouldn’t expect. I find it, you know, it can be so surprising who shows up and is ready to do the work once you start offering it to people?

Davina (00:25:12) Yeah.

Abby (00:25:14) Ha. Yeah, I remember doing I did a hollow Tropic Breathwork class like I attended one a few years ago, and I just did the breathing, the circular breathing process and then all my hands, like, tightened up. And I felt all of this tension in my body and all this tingling. And then I just a lovely facilitator came over and she did this like Reiki tuning sound and like, put her hand on my neck and all this, like, deep, deep wail of a cry just came out for a couple of minutes and I was like, too in it to care to be embarrassed about everybody else in the room hearing it. But afterward, I just felt so much lighter and the whole rest of that week I felt like a different person. And my husband Dave was saying, you, you were better. When you go to that, you should go more. I don’t think they’re offering it here anymore, unfortunately, but it was amazing. It was so transformative. And it was something that was just about breathing and being in my body and moving all the stuff that was held in my body.

Davina (00:26:15) is Pretty incredible. It is like there’s when I’m guiding, I’m often telling people like, see how if you’re facing resistance, see what’s on the other side of that, because it is a safe practice for doing that. And you’re like, Oh, it’s just breathing. But then you do face like so many, your ego’s trying to protect you, right? It’s like, don’t go there. You shouldn’t open that door, you should stop breathing or you should go back to your regular breathing. And all of this comes up. And even to me, what you’re describing, the like the hands and all that being super tight, we see that all the time, these little like lobster claws just because the PH levels change in your body. So it causes that. And I find it like oddly cute when people are like their little tiny hands.

Abby (00:27:03) Lobsters, little.

Davina (00:27:05) Insect arms and yeah, it can be very scary for people, too, which is why it’s helpful to have we always brief people on the kinds of things they can expect. Yeah, it’s incredible. What you can do with just your body and the emotional release that you’re just describing is so common for me. I don’t think I’ve ever done breathwork and not like cried a ton or released some kind of in some kind of emotional way. I’ve also experienced that with ice baths, which is probably one of my least favorite things to do, but also one of the most powerful things that I can do. It’s literally like 5 minutes to release so much. And I also was able to bring my sister and her partner sub to the ice baths that we do here with the community.

Davina (00:27:54) A lot of people come to Breathwork, go to the ice baths as well, and a lot of different great offerings around here. And the ice bath. The first time I did it here, it was. I went in and I was like my whole body. I got the technique from being in that ice bath. My whole body was frozen, you know, couldn’t move at all. And I was just focused on my breathing. It’s like I went into a trance or something. And then when my body finally relaxed, I just burst out in tears. But like a child, like this deep, deep sob. And one thing that’s helpful for me with this stuff and something that I will guide people in Breathwork as well, is that we don’t always need to have a story around these emotions. Sometimes they’re just stored in there. They might not even be ours.

Davina (00:28:39) They just what we have to do, what our job is essentially is to be present with them and let them pass, you know, and breathwork ice baths. All of these types of things are great practices for just releasing that stored energy, those emotions that just show up. They just want to be felt. And yeah, there doesn’t have to be a story around it. Like, Oh, why am I sad? Or Why am I so angry? The last ice bath  I did. I was so mad. I had so much anger. I went in and I was like, I’m mad. I have to do this. I don’t want to be here. And the facilitator who helps us through the ice baths, she’s like, Let it out, let it out. Just be you. And I was just like, wow, like screaming in the ice baths and felt amazing. And then when I got out, I was like a new person. Yeah, that’s amazing.

Abby (00:29:24) Very powerful. It is. It is amazing. It’s like in the work that I’ve done over the years, I felt I feel like. Maybe the number one, one of the key things that contribute to this depression and fatigue and illness, it’s just all of the emotions that didn’t get to be felt that are still held in the body. And if we can find more ways of getting those out, and especially without even needing to attach to the story like that, can just we can look at it and analyze it in a package, but sometimes we just got to heal and we got to get it out. We need to do it as fast as possible so that we can start feeling a lot lighter and a lot freer. And it’s something that I don’t think we talk about a lot in our society.

Abby (00:30:08) And so it can even seem surprising to me, too, or a friend of mine gave me a massage one time and I had like this chronic jaw, like this TMJ tension, and she massages all the stuff out of my jaw and I felt great. And I went to bed that night and I woke up in the middle of the night just furious, like, for no reason, but just so angry. And she worked all this tension out of my jaw, like, down to my heart, where I could feel and process it. There’s no story behind it. It was just like, Oh, this is all the stuff that was sitting in my body. And it’s I think if there are as many avenues as we can find to release that effectively, then that’s so powerful and it’s so healing and it’s so preventative for other possible issues down the road.

Davina (00:30:53) Yeah. All of that gets stuck in the body if it’s not expressed. My friend here is a massage therapist, a yoga teacher, and a lightworker. She’s extremely connected and I’ve had the privilege of being at her table a couple of times. She does like a34 hour massage. It’s incredible. And she works through it. Yeah, she’ll be like, Here’s your grandmother’s anger. You know, she’ll find so much stuff in the body. And it’s like, really, she really reads the body and finds things that are stuck in there, and she’ll work as long as she needs to on certain parts. Yeah, I’ve had this chronic shoulder issue for years now and I’m constantly trying to work with it to be like, What’s in here? What’s stuck in here? I’m still working on it. I still don’t know all the answers. I keep having these like ideas of what it is, and sometimes I’m like, Maybe I don’t need to think about it. I just need to feel through it. And sometimes I’m like, No, I need to break this down. And so it teaches me a lot, this injury, and yeah, always unpacking new layers of it until hopefully it will get healed eventually for good.

Abby (00:32:06) Yeah. I have faith that I will. For you, it’s just part of the journey, right? Continuing to unpack and learn. I find that true. Like I’m learning more and more every day and feeling more and more called to integrate lessons physically into the body.

Davina (00:32:21) Yeah. I believe that if it’s still there, it’s because it still has more to teach me. So I just need to keep. Keep listening and keep paying attention. Keep being with it.

Abby (00:32:31) Exactly. Yeah, it’s a great perspective. I kind of see it similar. I see it as a feedback system of like, okay, my body’s giving me a message or it needs my attention in some way. And whether that be feeling emotion or integrating something with breath or movement or awareness or life path, as you guys went to this whole other part of the world to kind of sounds like answer this sort of calling. I feel like that’s a big part of it too, is just permitting yourself to do what you feel like you’re meant to be doing and where you’re meant to be doing it.

Davina (00:33:04) Yeah. There are so many excuses we can come up with to come up with, to do, or to not do the things that sometimes we’re called to do. This is a huge leap of faith in so many ways. I’ve had so much emotion come up around this move. And, you know, I was attending the mentorship during the move, right when we’re preparing to leave. And when we arrived here, the mentorship kind of fell right in the middle of all of that, which was wonderful for me. It meant I had a lot of support from all the women in the group. But yeah, so much came up, you know, it was, What am I doing? Why I’m imploding my life, you know, why would I step into the unknown like this?

Davina (00:33:43) I still have moments of really, really being homesick, of missing the house that we lived in and grieving the fact that, like, our life will never be in that house again. And all those memories of the kids being Little Charlie are my almost six-year-old. She was brought home to that house and. Yeah. It’s just really there’s a lot of sadness around the passage of time because it’s such a house is such an anchor for those five years of our life, which happened to be the first five years of Charlie’s life, too. And I still grieve a little bit for that house. And there are so many layers around that because I have I recognize the privilege that I had to be able to sell the house. When we did, nobody kicked us out. We weren’t forced out of the house for financial reasons. If anything, we got to sell at the height of the market, probably.

Davina (00:34:37) I never thought we’d be able to sell the house for what we were able to sell it for, but it was a result of that time. And, you know, all of these things kind of ushered us out of there being like, Oh, do you want me to make it easier for you? Like, here’s a good financial amount for your house and you want me to make it easier for you? It’ll sell in four days. And, you know, here’s a beautiful town that you love. Oh, and the town also has a French school, which was important for you. Like, you know, all of these little things that just lined up and community, my goodness, like I just said, the word community. And I got chills up in my arms because I didn’t know that I was moving here for the community. But like, that is what we got here. Like, it makes me emotional because it’s so special and it’s something I’ve never experienced before. Like, I didn’t know I was missing it until we came here.

Davina (00:35:25) It’s we’ve been here almost seven months now, and I have probably 12 people who I could call if I needed them right now who would show up here for me, you know, like emotionally or physically or picking up our kids because we can’t make it or lending us their car because our car broke down, like or, you know, if I just really needed someone to talk to, it’s just. I feel like we have these beautiful relationships with people here, but I’m so grateful for people from all over the world and people who are born and raised here in Costa Rica I’ve had the pleasure of making all kinds of different friendships. Yeah. It’s something so, so special. And when my family was here visiting, I felt really lucky that they got to witness that.

Davina (00:36:10) And even though it’s something like my parents couldn’t see themselves doing, moving to Costa Rica, they kind of thing we’re crazy to have done this. I think part of them were nuts, but they also told us, like, we get it, I can see you and we see the kids and how you’re thriving here and these beautiful people and your life. And we get it. And that was I didn’t need that, but it was nice to be able to share that with them and to have them see it.

Abby (00:36:35) Yeah. Wow, it is so beautiful. And something, where that came to mind earlier when you were talking about kind of holding that space of what you touched, was real like with adult will come up of like, oh did you make that all up? That was all in your mind. But if you can find community and people who will be in that space with you and share that with you, I find it can be so affirming and nurturing to help grow that part of you and such a beautiful heart connection.

Davina (00:37:09) Yeah. And I feel like I was sharing this with Daniel the other day. I feel like a lot of the people who we’ve met here, they see me and like, I don’t know how to express this. I feel like I like how they see me. I like the reflection of me that I see through them. Hmm. Like there’s a friend I made here. Who? I sat with her. We had this, like, four-hour coffee, and she facilitates Rufo, and she just talked about me, like, the way she sees me. And I was just, like, in awe that I got to receive that from her with such a beautiful gift, you know? She’s like, I see how real you are and how pure your heart is.

Davina (00:37:58) And she shared a lot of things with me that were very difficult for her to share in the past, but she’s like, I feel very open with you and I want to share this with you. And it’s like, I got to see again, like the medicine that I have to give. I got to see it reflected through how she was able to receive it if that makes sense. And I think I’ve been somebody who for a long time I had this idea that I. It was very ordinary and had nothing special to offer. And I was broken and needed so much healing and so much caretaking and all of this. And then being like, No, actually a lot of what I’ve lived is part of what makes me have this medicine.

Davina (00:38:42) And if it’s nothing else but to hold space for people so they can share something that they’ve never shared with anyone before, that is extremely valuable. I don’t have to be some kind of like guru or medicine woman, you know, and it doesn’t have to look a certain way. And I’m finding ways that I just existing and doing continuing to do the work that I’m doing for myself and coming from a very humble place where my ego has a healthy reality check regularly, you know, is allowing me to to get out of my way and to just be of service in the way that I think that I’m probably meant to, you know.

Abby (00:39:26) Yeah. Yeah. That’s such a beautiful journey to go on and kind of realize that you do have these things to share. And I feel like we can get caught in our heads of having to look a certain way or be a certain format. But like when you were talking about just being so open and connecting with people and talking about the struggles you’ve been through and helping them to relate and share their story back to you. That in itself is medicine and there are so many other kinds. It’s just so many ways that you share gifts with the world. It’s beautiful to see.

Davina (00:40:00) Yeah. I think of all the ways that I tried to prevent myself from doing that to, you know, it’s like it kind of makes me laugh because I hosted this journaling group recently. It was a six-week kind of program that came to me very intuitively. I just sat down. I was, like, battling in my mind with it for a long time. It was this idea I had for so long. I feel like I talked about it even during the mentorship, like this idea of like wanting to because journaling has been so powerful for me and I kept getting these like downloads of like, here’s a good topic that you could explore. And I was like, No, no, but I’m not the person to do that. That’s not for me. That’s not for me.

Davina (00:40:36) And then eventually I was like, What if it was for me? What would that look like? And then I just allowed myself to go there. I wrote it all down, I fleshed it out. I, you know, and at the end of it, I was like, this is good. I think I think this could be helpful for people. A lot of the journaling prompts and the themes are helpful to explore and were things that I had done myself and have found helpful. And then I just put it out there to see if anyone was interested. And in 24 hours I had to like close my page down because I had so many people like I wanted to do it.

Davina (00:41:09) And then I did it. But it took me a while to like to announce the dates because there was more fear there. There was more, you know, maybe not. You and my inner saboteur were so loud. You had so many reasons why I shouldn’t do it and I wasn’t the right person to do it, etc., etc. Why? I needed more time, I needed more training, and I needed to read more books. You know, so many reasons. And then I was like, You know what? I can hold space. I know how to hold space. And these prompts are good and they’ve helped me. And these people are here and they, they applied and they want to do this with me, so let’s just do it. And I led the group by explaining how much resistance I had met.

Davina (00:41:51) And so I started it by being very honest. I was like, Here are all the things my inner saboteur had to say before I had to shut that voice down and decide to do it anyway. And it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. I had women from all over the world and it was incredible meeting with them every week and seeing, you know, so much coming out of them and how much they showed up to give it they’re all. It was like, here are masks coming down. Here’s what I’m struggling with. Like, you won’t see this on social media, but this is what’s going on behind the scenes. It was just beautiful. I had chills every week on that, on those calls. I cried every week. It was I wasn’t a perfect leader. I didn’t always know the right thing to say. I often cried at people’s stories. I’m sure if I was like doing life coaching, I would have broken all the rules. But.

Davina (00:42:46) But I was me. And I think that was. I did the best I could. And, and it was a beautiful conversation and everyone got a lot out of it. I had beautiful feedback and then I started hosting them here in Samara as well with a small group of women, same thing, this sisterhood, and supportive circle and allowing the journaling to guide the conversations. And it was incredible. And I was like, I could have just listened to that voice and not done this and why, you know, why would I have done that? So I try to keep that in mind. Now, when things come through, something that I’m inspired to do, it’s where is this coming from? Like, where is this creative idea coming from? And oftentimes it’s a battle too. To make sure that the ego and the saboteur voices are contributing something helpful, you know, because sometimes maybe they do have something helpful to say. Maybe it’s true that I don’t know a lot about that topic.

Davina (00:43:50) Maybe that’s one I should stay away from this time. Or maybe that’s something I’d want to learn more about before I venture down that road. That’s helpful feedback. But being like, Don’t do this. Keep yourself safe. Nobody wants to learn from you or whatever. Those are not helpful voices. So I can better detect now where they’re coming from. And I think humility is a big part of it, too. Like mine. My ego needs to be really, really in check. I’m not doing anything that I do if I think I’m doing it for some kind of, like, fame or fortune. Not that there’s fame or fortune in any of the stuff I’ve been doing, but that’s something I need to pay attention to. Awareness? I think what it is for me.

Abby (00:44:35) Yeah. Yeah, it’s I think that when you mentioned earlier how you opened up this journaling class by saying these are all the things that I came up against, this is all the resistance I had to even do this. It’s like it opens up the floor to say, you can be this real here. It’s okay. We don’t have to pretend. And it just takes one person having that level of courage. And that’s such a beautiful space to hold for people, for them to feel, Oh, it’s okay, we’re all equals and it’s safe to show these parts of me here. And just by the way, I also cry when people share their stories. I don’t know if there’s an official you’re not supposed to cry rule, but I don’t follow that if they’re either. You’re just being real and being a person and connecting from the heart, you know? It’s beautiful.

Davina (00:45:26) I could never be any other way, honestly. I just couldn’t. I’ve always been extremely sensitive and Charlie is a little copy of me when it comes to that. She is super sensitive. We watch a Disney movie and we’ll like sob together, you know, just very empathetic.

Abby (00:45:42) It’s a superpower because it helps you hold space and feel what other people are feeling. And I remember, I think I couldn’t be any other way either or I could try, but I mean, miserable trying. I remember listening to Oprah talk at one point about how she was, like, starting as this news anchor, but she was using all these personal stories and reactions and it was seen as not professional. And it wasn’t like she wasn’t doing it right or doing it well. And then she had this thought like, Well, wait a minute, maybe that is what makes me great. I just pivot it and find a place where she was allowed to be here and made a whole bunch of magic. I feel like it’s just that’s not wrong. It’s just where can I connect in a way that this is a gift?

Davina (00:46:26) Yeah. That’s such a beautiful way of looking at it. Where can I connect? In a place where this is a gift? Yeah. I don’t know if that are the exact words. I tried to repeat it exactly, but. Yeah, it’s really. That’s so beautiful. And that is totally what made Oprah so good. You know, that’s what we love about her. That’s how she was so real. And yeah, I wouldn’t want to be any other way. I mean, it’s that’s how I connect to people too, is I think that’s how they feel like they can share with me because I can hold that space and that I can. I can feel their emotions at least. Yeah.

Abby (00:47:04) Yeah. Help them feel seen. That’s a really powerful thing to be seen in that way and that heart space. So. So are you offering these journaling sessions now? Are you and Daniel doing Breathwork together now? So what’s next for you guys?

Davina (00:47:24) So we are continuing the Breathwork classes or the sessions here. We’re about to leave. We’re leaving for three weeks. At the end of the week, we’re going to the US. We’re doing a little road trip with the kids. They’re off school for a bit, so we figured we’d have a little adventure, which we’re very excited about. And then when we come back, we’ll resume our breathwork sessions. I’m putting it together I’m between journaling classes right now. I just wrapped up my first one, the one online and the one in person. And so I’m kind of figuring out how I want to structure the next ones, but I’m also working on something a little different. I guess it’s another one that I’ve been having a lot of voices getting involved in the process.

Davina (00:48:18) It’s called a return to wholeness, and it’s continuing on the path of healing, on the theme of healing, which is what I think I can I can never get away from, just forever. What I will be doing, I think. But the idea of this return to wholeness is to kind of. Forming a deeper connection to ourselves through different practices. I’ll have recorded Breathwork meditations and sessions. We’ll do like journaling prompts. We’ll do worksheets and different topics to explore and meet. I think I’ll probably do it. That’ll be optional to do it in a self-paced, self-led kind of situation. And also I’ll want to do one with live calls because I enjoy those a lot. And the power of connecting to other people in this container, as I’ve seen firsthand how powerful that is. And so I’ll have that component available.

Davina (00:49:22) And yeah, I’m still kind of like fleshing it out and exploring what that means, trying to spend time with like the most aligned in alignment version of myself so that the ideas are coming from, from that part of me. Yeah. That’s one thing I got to, got to practice through the mentorship was connecting to that part of me and listening to what that part has to say. I think like you kind of touched on this before, but the things I’m trying to create now, I want them to come from like a humble place and from that place of alignment. And it’s more asking myself, like, how is this going to serve others? Versus like me needing to control things to be a certain way or me needing to come off a certain way.

Davina (00:50:15) And that’s I think that’s. I needed to go through a lot of this other stuff to get to that place where I can even be aware of the difference between those voices. Yeah. They’re still there. The voices are still there. But I have a better relationship with them maybe. And I can identify them better. Hmm.

Abby (00:50:39) Beautiful. Yeah. And they, like, they don’t get to run the show anymore, it sounds like.

Davina (00:50:45) Exactly. Yeah.

Abby (00:50:48) So if for the people out there. Who is working through their fear, because you had mentioned that was a big part of the beginning of your healing journey with ayahuasca was moving through this fear this kind of fear of the unknown, this desire to control that, and then stepping into compassion and know so much you’ve been through. So there are people who are on their path and they’re confronting these kinds of things. What would you want them to know?

Davina (00:51:23) I’m. There’s a difference between fear and danger. So, you know, we can look like we think we’re in danger. But remembering that just because it feels scary doesn’t mean it’s something you’re incapable of. It’s a very simple lesson, but ayahuasca repeated to me over and over again, You can do hard things, which is I think there’s a children’s book named that like very basic. But yeah, you can do hard things and sometimes do breathwork I’ll say that to people, just remembering that the boundaries of our comfort zone can be stretched and it can be scary. But it also doesn’t have to be like that. Karate chopping them down. You can stretch them gently and it can be a process. And, you know, there’s a place for conquering fear in a way that’s still it will. It’s scary. Conquering fear is scary, but it can still be done at your own pace. And there’s still a way to do that while respecting what you’re ready for.

Davina (00:52:33) And also that there are a lot of practices to get you comfortable, you know, with fear, which sounds ironic, comfortable with fear, but or to practice that, you know, conquering fear is a practice. And if you’re able to find ways to face fear and to go beyond fear regularly in a way that’s safe and controlled, like ice baths, like Breathwork, those are two very powerful practices we’ve talked about that I personally just really connect to. Then other stuff doesn’t feel as scary anymore. You train yourself to know that you are capable of facing fear and that you’re stronger than you think. Hmm.

Abby (00:53:18) That’s beautiful. Where can people find you, Davina, if they want to learn more about the work you do?

Davina (00:53:25) Yeah. So my website is constantly a work in progress, but I try to post there and the things that I’m doing and I post some of my journaling entries there and try to continue sharing there on Instagram. I’m @Davinakudish. Could I eventually I will probably change back to there too. But for now, I’m still at Kudish, which is my partner’s last name. And yeah, those are the two, the two places. So. Yeah.

Abby (00:54:04) So. Well, thank you for sharing your journey, and thank you for your openness and authenticity, and integrity in it. And it’s I, I can feel how much it’s reaching out and helping other people and we can’t know how much more that will ripple out now and in the future. So really beautiful work you’re doing.

Davina (00:54:24) Thank you. Thanks for having this conversation with me and also for everything that I’ve gotten from having you as my mentor. It’s been I’m still every day continuing to unpack some of what we explored. And I’m grateful for that.

Abby (00:54:42) I think you it’s so much fun. And you were talking earlier about, like, needing to feel prepared and those things that were coming up. It’s like, I feel like every class is like an adventure. Like, I’ll show something, but I don’t know what’s going to how people are going to respond. And that’s part of what makes it so interesting, is this like dynamic alive thing. And I’m guessing for your what you teach to like you can’t know how people are going to show up or what’s going to come up for them. But that’s part of the adventure. It’s a beautiful thing you get to hold space for.

Davina (00:55:15) And that’s been a huge place for me to face fear. That fear of how am I going to come off and are they going to think I’m terrible at this and being like, no, I trust my intuition. I trust the flow. And yeah, I can only do my best and show up as mine. My most aligned self and give myself grace when it’s not perfect and yeah.

Abby (00:55:59) Absolutely. Thank you. th


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Body Awakening

Abby Body awakening
Abby Body Awakening

Body Awakening:
My Journey of Physical Healing

In episode 18, Body Awakening, I share my journey of having developed digestive issues 7 years ago that had been getting progressively worse, to the point of barely being able to stay upright. Here I share my process of healing and what it’s taken to regain energy in my body.

Connect with Abigail:
Instagram @yourmindbodyfree
Facebook @yourmindbodyfree
Mentorship Program

Mentioned in this episode:

Candida Healing
Dave Moss Coach
Chinese Energetic Medicine with Jeanette Lee


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Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:00) Hello and welcome to the Mind Body Free Podcast. I’m your host, Abigail Moss. I am a healer. I’m a mentor and guide. I help people to heal their body, mind, and spirit, connect with their passion and purpose, and share their gifts in this world. And today I am back and back after a little break. So thanks. How’s it going? Nice to see you again. Or nice for you to hear me again. I don’t know.

Abby (00:00:30) Anyway, nice to connect. And I just wanted to share a little bit about where I’ve been lately and my journey and what I’ve been doing to help myself heal. So it’s been busy. I’m running a mentorship and an integrative healing coach training right now, which is a lot of fun, really great groups, and amazing people. And with that, I’ve also been doing a lot of work to heal my body. So I’ve been on this journey of emotional healing for quite some time, and that kind of led me into Peru and Ayahuasca and shamanic Chinese medicine.

Abby (00:01:16) Yeah. So desire and the desire to hear led me to Peru and ayahuasca. And then the desire, the burning desire to find my purpose, to answer this calling this feeling that I need to find something more and what I meant to be doing. So that led me down. Shamanic Chinese medicine, Vipassana meditation, linguistic programming, hypnotherapy, a bunch of other tools for healing and letting go of the blocks, the beliefs, and the patterns between my spirit and reality. I guess I could say it that way. Lifting the veil that’s been installed by my mind and the beliefs within the mind and all of the energies attached to that. So that was the initial journey.

Abby (00:02:08) And then a few years ago, the second time I went down to Peru, I was there for two months and I did end up getting a lot of stomach bugs, you know, food poisoning symptoms. I accidentally one time forgot to rinse my toothbrush, not in the tap water, in the purified water instead. So the one time I didn’t do that, I ended up getting quite sick the next day and coincidentally were also in a very long and powerful witch Uma ceremony. And I had been chosen, along with some of the other facilitators, to be in the ceremony and hold space. And I took that job very seriously and I just sat and meditated and witnessed all of them, the wild streams of consciousness from the group floating around.

Abby (00:03:09) And I just acted as a witness, as light like a candle in the darkness, releasing all the stuff that was coming up, hoping to hold space for the shaman, doing her work. And I think with that there is also some spiritual and energetic stuff I may not have fully navigated as well as I could have. Or, you know, I guess I did navigate to the best of my ability at that time. But knowing what I know now and thinking back, that may have been a factor as well. So anyway, I ended up getting sick and I came home from Peru. My digestion, my gut was off. I was also going through a lot of emotional challenges at that time. I was trying to decide which direction I should go in my life, and it was challenging for myself, for my partner.

Abby (00:04:04) And so there’s a lot of emotional distress, which is also very tied to gut distress. And so there is that. And then I went to India, I think a couple of months later, and I got food poisoning there and got sick again. And the gut distress was even worse. And I was just kind of. My diet consisted mostly of carbs in both Peru and India, kind of plant-based, lots of oats in India, lots of fruit. And so leading lots of sugar, so under a lot of emotional distress and had probably also picked up at least one bug and at least one of those countries. So it was all kind of this breeding ground for, you know, pathogens and co-infections within my digestive system and my gut.

Abby (00:04:58) And I came home and just noticed some different things like, oh, I can’t drink alcohol. And maybe that’s just because I’m more spiritual. Now, sugar seemed to bother me more and I would get more tired. And at first, it was like, okay, I can cope with this. I didn’t think too much of it. But as time went on, as the years went on, it seemed to get worse and worse. And I got to a point a little over a year ago where I just decided I can’t. I need to do something about this because I was so tired. And there’s lots of brain fog and just all kinds of problems with digestion. And I wasn’t able to properly function and had very little motivation in my business. It’s very hard to be motivated when your body’s not working properly.

Abby (00:05:51) And so I decided I needed to do something about it. So I learned about Candida overgrowth, what that is. And I looked into the symptoms of it and I just read like I found some great resources online at I can drop on the show notes and there is a lot of education there and a lot of videos. People who had been through this experience kind of shared the science of what’s going on and the stages based on your symptoms. And I just really resonated as true in my body of this is something that I’m going through.

Abby (00:06:28) And I felt so hopeful to have finally found somebody who could give me some answers because I had gone to my Western doctor and all of these uncomfortable tests, and they didn’t find anything wrong with me. But I knew there was something wrong with me. And having found this, I felt, okay, I’m not alone. Other people have been through this, are going through this, but there are a lot of people who have gotten better. And this is an actual serious issue. Some people to some people it can be fatal if not treated properly.

Abby (00:07:04) It was validating the experience I was having in my body and it was helpful to have a plan and how to move forward. And it is challenging or it was challenging for those, especially those first few weeks going on something called a candidate diet, which you starve Candida, which is a yeast that naturally occurs in the body, but under the stress and with too many with the stress, with too many toxins, antibiotics, medications, it can mutate into a fungal form and spread throughout the body, creating something called leaky gut and moving through the tight junctions in the lining of the gut and into the bloodstream.

Abby (00:07:56) And then from there it can migrate to other organs and affect them and could even cause organ failure, which if not treated properly. So part of what is involved in healing that is going on is the Candida diet, and that’s a really important step and that’s a diet that essentially starves the Candida of sugar because that’s what it eats. And so it’s a lot like. The Keto diet minus the dairy, because that also feeds Candida. And minus any processed foods or processes are kind of fake sugars. Because with Candida also comes something called leaky gut, where the digestive system becomes very sensitive because food is passing through the gut lining and into the bloodstream and going to places where it doesn’t belong and creating an inflammatory response.

Abby (00:08:51) So the body develops a lot of food allergies and sensitivities. So you have to move into a Whole Foods diet that is kind of really gentle on the gut for some time as that’s healing. So anyway, as you go into this, I went into this diet and like a lot of people experience, there’s this die-off symptom of the Candida dying as well as the Candida starving. So when Candida was starving, it felt like you were starving and you were furious. And because you just want something carbs and it’s a very emotional experience you can get. So I was getting waves of rage, anxiety, or depression, and these are all very common die-off symptoms.

Abby (00:09:37) But if you didn’t know what was going on, it could be very distressing in a way it is already distressing, but it’s comforting to know that this is a natural and temporary part of the process. So I went through that and I started integrating supplements, antifungals, things that would help to kill off the Candida and at the pace as gradual enough that my body could cleanse it out, my liver could cleanse the toxins from that process out of my system. So it is a very big learning process and in many ways continues to be. And yeah, it was very tiring, like more tiring times.

Abby (00:10:21) The body needs a lot of energy to heal. And I felt worse before I felt better. So as I was going through this experience, I was getting rashes on my skin, I was getting ways where I felt dizzy and had to lie down. I spent as many days as I spent just on the couch lying down, able to do little more than that. And those days gradually started becoming less and less able to walk a little bit. I was able to do a little bit more. I was able to work on my laptop from the couch lying down. I was able to do a little more, and a little more and build my business and work with clients.

Abby (00:11:01) And that to me is so fulfilling and so rewarding and purposeful. So getting to do that, even though my health wasn’t the greatest, it was a light in my life and it continues to be a light in my life doing this work. I love it. And with that I did notice eventually I started to plateau so I would do something that my energy would be such a thin line of having just enough where I would go out and I would do something physically strenuous or like moving house physically and emotionally strenuous, just totally wrecked me and I would be back out. And then being a woman and getting my cycle each month, I would just totally wreck me. And so this went on for months and months and months.

Abby (00:11:51) Fast forward to a couple of months ago. I’ve been on this Candida slash keto diet for almost a year. And if I were to go off of it in any way, I just kind of my body reacts, and I kind of regress. So it got frustrating and I felt like, okay, I’m still tired. A lot of the time. I’ve reached this point where I need more help, I need more support. And at around that same time I said, Hey, the universe, I need help, I have something I need to do that is beyond my awareness right now because I have a lot of skills. I am good at emotional healing, really good at shamanic and spiritual healing.

Abby (00:12:33) I know a lot of things and I’ve done a lot of things, but at the same time was I felt like I was inside of this situation, inside of this body, that I couldn’t just work, that something is going on in the body that I needed to listen to and I need to honor and integrate some kind of practice for healing. So at around this time, one of my previous classmates from a kind of shaman school, we were studying shamanic Chinese medicine and medical qigong together, reached out and said, Hey, I want to help you. I wanted to give you these sessions. I saw your post about Candida. I just feel called to work with you.

Abby (00:13:13) So I thought, wow, thank you. Who is, you know, my friend who was also an angel? How beautiful. So I was working with Janette. You know, once a week for. Well, I was working with Jeannette a little less regularly for several months, and then we started working together once a week for two months. And that was beautiful and powerful. It was like 2 hours every week doing this, this remote energy healing session from her. And then she also gave me these exercises to do on my own, these kinds of specialized qigong exercises. And so I know a lot of qigong exercises that I’ve learned that are helpful and powerful engines that have some other ones that she has studied separately because this is kind of this is her world.

Abby (00:14:03) We’re going to have her on soon and let her speak to it. But she kind of lives and breathes qigong and these kinds of exercises. So she taught me these really powerful, really beautiful ones. And when she first showed them to me, I said, okay, that’s great. Wow, I feel this is amazing. Okay, I’m going to do this. And I didn’t do it because I was tired and I was frustrated and I was just angry with life and it is not easier than it should be. Yada, yada, yada. And so. A few months later, we’re doing this work. She gives me some shorter exercises that are also very powerful and I’m able to do a couple of those.

Abby (00:14:43) And I thought, wow, I notice a big difference when I do that. And I thought I should do this. I think doing this every day will help. And then, of course, I didn’t do it for a long time. And then, I thought, okay, there’s a mental block I need to get over because I think the thing that’s stopping me here is me because I need to do my inner work. I need to do these exercises to move forward. So in my coach training class, we do these sort of recorded demo sessions that the students can listen to to get more examples of how different tools can be used. And I asked my husband, who is a life coach, to demo some of these tools with me to help my coach train students.

Abby (00:15:30) And so he coached me on wanting to and on why I wasn’t building up or doing my practice. So in my morning practice, when I get up, I do a bit of yoga, I do qigong, or at least I do these exercises from Janette. And he coached me on that. And if you want to hear it, let me know. I can record it. I can post it in another episode, so let me know about that. But anyway, he coached me on that. I was able to shed some tears of relief, get over this block, and within like 15 minutes. He’s a great coach. Anyway, after that, I thought I was able to get back to my practice because I had a personal healing practice, you know, on and off throughout my life.

Abby (00:16:16) And I had been neglecting it for quite a while and I knew part of my mind now, like I’m being called, to integrate what I know and with my body and to come home into the body. And so I started doing my practice again after getting coached by Dave the lovely Dave Moss. And I started doing these shorter exercises that Jeanette gave me. And they were so sure there are only about 3 minutes per pose. And I had about, I don’t know, like five of them. And so like 15 minutes.

Abby (00:16:57) And I was doing these exercises. They’re very physical like this. It’s just tendons stretching. So just like one of these, pushing your arms out to the side is stretching your middle finger up to the ceiling as high as you can and really opening up the chest and bringing the shoulders back and down. And you’re just kind of standing there with your arms to the side. But when you went for me, when I’m pushing and stretching my tendons, my whole body starts shaking. I feel all this heat pouring off of me. My hands and arms start tingling.

Abby (00:17:27) This is just a lot going on with these exercises because it’s opening up my energy pathways and it’s releasing blockages. And these are the blockages that are causing me to feel tired, to not digest properly, for my body to not function properly. So there are these blockages that have been accumulating for a very long time. And what I was doing in these exercises is opening up and releasing them. So this is not like if you were to see this process, it’s not a pretty graceful yoga flow. It’s hard, it is a shaky process. I’m often moaning or yelling or, you know, breathing heavily.

Abby (00:18:09) It’s messy. It’s like a little exorcism every time I do it. And after I do it, I feel amazing. And so I just started noticing I have energy. I have more energy than I’ve had in years. I can walk. I feel the power in my hips and my core. And I thought, Oh my God, this is so amazing, so amazing to have this sort of energy in my tank when it felt like my tank was just barely running on fumes for years. Because of this whole Peru-India thing that was like seven years ago. So this is the first thing that has impacted the way I feel in my body.

Abby (00:18:51) So it was motivating to do it more. And I started doing it more. And then when I had Energy Trip, my weekly energy session with Jeanette, she said, Hey, you’re able to pull Chee into your body. Now your things are flowing. It’s so different. And like, I know I’m doing the work you gave me to thank that work. But I needed to get over the mental block and to do the work. But now that I am, I’ve been feeling much better. I just feel so much happier. I’m just so overjoyed to be able to have a body that is not, you know, not perfect. It’s not like working 100%.

Abby (00:19:29) But I’ve got the energy to deal with whatever is going on now because without the energy that everything is too much, just too overwhelming the will to even do anything about it. It’s just not there. But with this energy, I can do it. I can deal with anything. I can overcome anything. So with that, I also felt way better emotionally, just emotionally regulated, because I’m working through these exercises and my liver purifies the blood and also regulates processes, emotions. So now that those channels are flowing properly, things just don’t bother me as much.

Abby (00:20:11) Opening up the heart space, supporting the spleen, which is tied to digestion. So I just have a lot more energy and I’ve been feeling called even do the exercises that Jeanette originally gave me that are longer, but they go deep and integrate those into my practice and just feeling just this deepening connection with my body, deepening, healing, this increasing energy and just this sense of gratitude for life and appreciation for this beautiful world that we’re in. And there are times when I remember feeling this way, too, when I did a lot of qigong when I was studying it in my earlier days.

Abby (00:20:58) Now that I’m getting back into doing a lot more as I feel a big shift, like a shake and I release, I feel a block release, the channel opens up and my eyes open and there’s this sense of vividness and crispness through the way I see through my eyes and this intense sense of presence and connection with my environment and my body. And it feels so different, so vivid, and crystal clear. And it’s like this moment of awakening that I’m experiencing through my body, through doing these exercises. And with that, it’s not even a place where any to write down.

Abby (00:21:40) I work through things in my head or, you know, process. It’s just breathing and moving and feeling and just stretching and just very much doing these exercises where a lot of the whole exercise could be sitting in one place and just doing some gentle arm movements and holding something for quite a while. But it’s moving our energy through my body and this very powerful, incredibly healing way. And I’ve always felt and in my experience, that healing is also awakening these to go hand in hand as we heal and release the blocks of what is untrue, what is painful, what you get on the other side of it is this deeper awareness and a deeper connection with what is true for you with what is free.

Abby (00:22:34) So as I’m releasing these blocks into my body, releasing these blocks from my body, my body is going through or I’m going through an awakening experience within my body. It’s a body awakening if you will. And it’s hard to imagine. It’s something that you need to experience as this sense of aliveness and vividness and clarity and lightness and beauty. And it’s just this connection with my body and with my environment that’s just so profoundly beautiful to experience. And so, yeah, it’s motivating, it’s encouraging. It’s something that my body begins to want to do. Before, when I was tired, it took extra energy to get up and do my dang exercises because I knew it would help.

Abby (00:23:30) I know it would be physical, I would shake a lot. I probably make lots of weird noises, but then I would feel much better for the rest of the day. Now I wake up and I crave it. My body tells me, Hey, I want you to go back and I want you to do that exercise that Jeanette told you showed you a while ago. So I go back and I do it. I feel amazing. I feel more things open up. I go for a walk with my dogs. I feel my alignment in my body is just. The way it’s supposed to be. And it’s just such an incredible thing.

Abby (00:24:04) And now it’s something that I’m kind of seeing as my part-time job while I’m healing the stuff that, you know, this quote-unquote chronic issues that have been here for years, I’m healing it inside of myself. And when things started to shift and it’s been giving me energy treatments for we started last fall. So it’s been a while, I think it was last September. And so she’s been giving me these treatments for some time. It was when I started doing the exercises myself, but she said, Hey, your energy feels way better, things are different.

Abby (00:24:42) And that’s when I noticed things feeling way better and different within my body, within my life. And it was something that shifted where I just decided, All right, I went on a diet. I know I can do hard things. I can just do my exercises even when I don’t feel like it. I can just get up each morning and do it. And if for some reason I miss a morning, I will get up and do it the next day. And it was like that switch was like, I just turned a light switch on where I decided to take an active role in my health and my healing. And instead of being frustrated with life and resentful that it wasn’t easier, that it was, you know, you know, my husband can eat whatever he wants and be fine, but I could sit there being all, you know, my pity party about that.

Abby (00:25:33) I could get up and do something about it. And that’s what I did. And that’s when everything started to change. And I’m so happy to have to be experiencing this, because it is this deeper level of integration, of taking responsibility for my health and my well-being. And with this, I’ve also been doing the emotional pieces of speaking to the issue, the pattern, and the reason for it of clearing entities. I’m a shaman. I do lots of entity clearing, so it’s a thing. It’s okay. Just entities attached to beliefs, you know, just darker energies.

Abby (00:26:13) So what the clearing of that along the way, which is also a dimension of this, but this part that I was missing was the personal practice and doing these really powerful qigong exercises that are targeted to exactly what I need, which, you know, for a lot of women who struggle with digestive issues and menstrual issues, it’s spleen and kidneys and with that liver. So I was doing these exercises. I still am. I probably will be for several more months. But I’m feeling so much better in my life and noticing so many differences in how I feel in my heart and how I, you know, just walk outside.

Abby (00:26:56) I just can’t help but appreciate how beautiful the sky and the trees are and the birds chirping because it’s springtime now and even when it’s cold as fuck is still beautiful in some way. So I’m just that’s where I’ve been. I’m just really grateful. I’m really happy. And I don’t want to say the word hopefully. I am hopeful, but I’m also just really confident that I can continue healing, that I’m moving in that direction. I need to be going in now. And with that, I wanted to mention Jeanette. So she is working in mind-body free now and we’re going to be bringing her in to do an episode soon so you can meet her there.

Abby (00:27:40) But she is going to be offering one on one sessions with people. You’ll be able to book it through the website. She offers amazing distance a.k.a remote energy healing treatments, so they’re focused on Chinese energetic medicine. Jeanette comes from a background of traditional Chinese family where they worked with herbs and diet for healing. And then she’s done so much learning and growth within the world of qigong and Chinese energetic medicine. So she offers this one-on-one session with people and she prescribes personalized exercises that you can do based on what you need.

Abby (00:28:24) And she’s also working in the mentorship program where she’s teaching some Qigong classes within the group there as well, and helping everybody to feel good and healthy in their body. Because a lot of us, you know, have been through stuff in this lifetime and past lifetimes. And part of healing the heart is also healing the body. Healing the body makes it easier to heal the heart, you know, all interconnected. So I’m really happy to be having Janette within the mentorship program as well. We’ve been getting so much great feedback. People have been having so many great questions for her.

Abby (00:29:02) So I am excited for you to all meet her in the next episode. And until then, I hope you are all doing beautifully. I hope that the story gave you some takeaways. I know for me the biggest takeaway from my journey was those few. One was just being open to receive help, to have the humility, to acknowledge that even though I’m skilled at this stuff, I need some help right now. And then being open to receiving that and, and then the shift in taking an active role in my well-being and doing the dang work and getting up each morning and doing the exercises that I know are so incredibly helpful for me.

Abby (00:29:50) So if you are on your journey of healing your body, I want you to know that you’re not alone, that you can heal anything. You’ve got this. You can do this. And if you want to support, you can reach out. You can schedule a free discovery call. I would be happy to support you myself or point you in the direction of someone who can help you heal. So sending you my love, you can reach me at as well as Instagram and Facebook @yourmindbodyfree. And if you like this episode or you find this content useful, I’d love to receive a review from you on iTunes. And if you have any questions for future episodes, just drop them in the comments or send me a message. All right. Have a great day. And you, my love.,


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New Year Journey Pt. 2

New Year Journey Mind Body Free Podcast
New Year Journey Part 2 Abby Banner Photo

New Year Journey Pt 2

In episode 15: New Year Journey Pt 2, we move into part 2 of our New Year’s Eve series of saying farewell to 2021 and welcoming in 2022. In this episode, you will be guided through a Shamanic journey of releasing what you would like to let go of in 2021 and stepping into what you are creating in 2022. 

If you haven’t yet you can listen to Part 1 here.
 As you explore this visioning journey, I encourage you to approach it with a sense of play and discovery, as well as a pen and paper so you can answer the journaling prompt below after you’ve listened to the journey.

Journaling Exercise:

1. Listen to the guided Journey in Episode 15.

2. Journal what you have let go of in 2021. 

3. Journal what you are stepping into in 2022.

4. Have a magical New Year!

Connect with Abigail:
Facebook: @yourmindbodyfree
Instagram: @yourmindbodyfree
Schedule a free discovery call
Learn more about the Mentorship Program



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Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:00) Hello and welcome to the mind body for your podcast. I am your host, Abigail Moss. I am a healer, a coach, and a mentor. I help people to connect with their inner healers. Their passion and purpose and share their medicine with the world. And today it is episode 15 and this is part two of our New Year’s journey.

Abby (00:00:25) So if you haven’t yet done part one, which is episode 14, I recommend starting there because it’s going to make this next journey even more vivid and clear. We don’t have to do that one first, but it will help make this one even more powerful. So this journey that we’re going to go on today is all about moving into the ceremony of the rite of passage, of letting go of 2021 and stepping into 2022.

Abby (00:01:00) And with that, we let go of anything we don’t need to bring with us into this next year. And in doing that, we create space for what we want to welcome into 2022. So I hope you enjoy this journey. This is another live recording from one of my mentor classes. And again, you are going to want to have a pen and paper handy to do some journaling for the questions afterward. And I encourage you to give yourself some space to relax, to close your eyes, to sink into this because you’ll get the most from this journey that way. All right. So without further ado, here is our New Year’s journey.

Abby (00:01:44) So we’re doing our New Year’s letting go and calling in. We want to let go of 2021 and call in 2020 to journey. So let’s close our eyes and just imagine some light pouring down from above melting into you from the top of your head, down into your brain and eyes and ears, nose and throat.

Abby (00:02:09) Putting that light, fills all of your senses, and releases any blocks from seeing your divine path, you are inherently worth yours. You’re allowing that expression and confidence to flow through you and allowing that light to melt into your shoulders, your arms, and hands, relaxing everything that it touches and feeling and melting down into your lungs as you breathe it into your lungs.

Abby (00:02:42) I’m feeling a melting down into all your organs and your heart, your liver, your stomach and spleen, and your kidneys down through your intestines, melting into your hips and releasing any tension from your hips, feeling that light melting down like a warm smile into your legs, melting into your knees, going down your lower legs and into your ankles and your feet, and just feeling every part of you relaxed. Just letting go of any tension, any worry, any stress, any heaviness releasing that into the light.

Abby (00:03:22) Feeling like getting some tree roots coming from you and going into the Earth and going deeper and deeper and plugging in with a core of Mother Earth and feeling a pulsing life force, hearing the heartbeat of the Earth, feeling yourself sinking up with that now. And sending some gratitude to Mother Earth and feeling her sending some energy up your tree, roots up your legs, filling up behind your belly button. And overflowing up into your heart center and radiating out, filling your whole body, the whole room, you’re in, the whole building you’re in.

Abby (00:04:19) The whole city, the whole country, and the whole planet. Feeling yourself fully connected and supported from above and below and wrapped in a bubble of life. Good and bringing your awareness back into your hard center, now dropping into this space and feeling that pulsing life force there. And feeling yourself expand out every breath that you take as you inhale, feeling your heart center expand, and as you exhale, feel it coming back in, it’s moving with your breath. Good, don’t know you next inhale, leave the energy in your hearts under expanded out as you continue to breathe naturally.

Abby (00:05:15) Right, and we’re going to be moving into your timeline, we’re going to go into space where it’s light and time and work with this dimension. I want you to imagine now that an energy current is coming to pick you up and lift you. So you are just kind of there in front of you now and you can show a powerful home. It works while it can be a cloud of magic carpet or car or plane helicopter. I’m just imagining that you’re stepping on to that energy of current and it’s bringing you up into the sky above the Earth. Into a good web of light.

Abby (00:05:57) And as you look down, you can see the timeline for your life buried on Earth and imagine yourself now just standing on that timeline in your present day. And as you stand on that, it’s like standing in a line of light. And as you look behind you, you see the past as you look ahead of you, you see the future. And a little bit ahead of you, not too far, you see a line of light kind of a marker point in that line of light, says 20. Twenty-two. And I want you to think now of things you’d like to leave behind to let go of.

Abby (00:06:50 )Do not bring with you into 2020 to think of all of the things that you’d like to let go of as you move into this next year. This next part of your life? And I want you to look behind you and see all those things there that you like to let go of that can be recent or very far back in your timeline. Doesn’t matter. I just see them there now knowing that I can’t harm you. They’re just there in your awareness. And I want you to imagine now.

Abby (00:07:32 )There’s a bubble of light here and inside that bubble of light has an irresistible magnetic pull, all of that which you like to release before you move into the new year and just gently with a smile. I put all those old ways, old habits, patterns, and energies into that light to be transformed in that bubble of light. So everywhere that you felt that you resisted bringing a vision into reality, but that goes into that bubble where it feels scary to put yourself out there and make connections and miss all of that everywhere.

Abby (00:08:17) You had to figure it all out before it can happen or it’s all going to explode. Put all of that and that bubble of light. All negative self-talk and self-judgment are depreciation. Take all of that and allow the bubble of light to put in a release from you and create the lead in this story, all cords attached to any of that self-talk. Good. So whenever it feels like you’re not making progress, when a small setback happens, everything is put into that bubble of light. And create and delete any attachments and destroy any attachments to that.

Abby (00:09:04) You can see the depth and. And the power of the progress that you’ve made and feel that within, you know, that to be true, all regret, rigidity, complacency, and worry allow that to go into that bubble of light. Everything that kept you small put that in the rubble. Everything that holds you back releases that into that bubble. Everything that made you feel afraid, release all of that. Everything that made you feel unworthy, release all of that. I mean, the thing that said, you’re not enough and create in this story, all of that and you release it into the bubble of life.

Abby (00:09:56) I want you to imagine if there’s any other kind of orbs of light or of energetic frequencies that you sense and feel it’s not meant to come with you. That feels heavy and something to go where you’re going. Release all of that into that ball of light. And I want you to look at that bubble of light and just say thank you, thank you for all the ways that you’ve served me. Thank you for all the ways that you’ve helped me come to this moment in time now. Thank you for having me cope when I needed help coping. Thank you. Thank you for helping me to adapt when I needed help adapting.

Abby (00:10:44) And I want you to take a moment and decide right now if you would truly like to let this go and make space for what you’re bringing in in 2020. And feeling that inside of you and your heart feeling that, well, the power of actually truly deciding to let it go. And let the power of that decision break any cords or attach to that bubble. And imagine the sky of white above us, and we’re just starting to bubble into the light, seeing it moving on and. Merging with a light in five four three two one. Feeling raindrops of light, pouring down onto you onto your past and your future.

Abby (00:11:52) Blessing you and every part of you with the wisdom and healing from this experience. I want you to look forward to it now. Just beyond that line, that marker point of 2020, do you feel the energies of what you’re calling into this next chapter of your life? I want you to imagine stepping forward just before that line, before that threshold point. And looking into all those things that you’re bringing in, feeling all the energy of it, allowing it to grow and expand. Feeling yourself moving forward, ever so gently. I want you to before you step across that line to the side again in your heart. If you’d like to allow this, and if you truly would like to allow us to welcome this into your life and yourself.

Abby (00:13:02) Knowing that you are worthy and deserving of whatever your heart desires to create. I’m feeling now with that decision. And creating, deleting, and storing all fears. Feeling now with your decision. Because you feel it in your heart, I want you to step across that line into the threshold of 20 22. Just being in this energy of what you’re creating in your life. And one more time scene, the most vivid and vital and powerful scene for you to see now of this life that you’re creating of what you’re calling in and 2022 and being there in five four three two one.

Abby (00:14:06) And as you’re there now, are you inside or outside? Are you alone or is anyone with you? And if others are there, who’s there? It’s daytime or nighttime. What are you doing at this moment? What’s happening around you? And how are you engaging, if others are there, how are you engaging with them? And how are you feeling at this moment? And what are you grateful for? And if there’s one thing you’d like yourself to know. You like your parcel to know about how you created this, what would you like to know? OK. And

Abby (00:15:37) I think a symbol to appear in front of you, a symbol that is a powerful symbol for you, that will help you in creating this and bringing this into your life as an anchor for all of these energies that you’re calling into 20 22. And seeing that symbol in front of you now and welcoming it into your heart. Good and allowing this memory, this moment is feeling to stay with you, meaning you can’t remain in you and continue guiding you forward and your deeply fulfilling life.

Abby (00:16:20) Moving back to the present day, here you are before said before not quite yet in 2020 to feel the lightness in your timeline, the shift fueling the excitement of all that’s coming ahead and just allowing that current of energy to take you back to your body. Back to this moment in time on Earth and being there in five four three two one feeling fully present and alive in your body, you’re feeling well and relaxed and home imagining a set of stairs with five steps as you go on two steps five and four feeling light, feeling clear and easily recalling the details of this journey to on step three and two.

Abby (00:17:14) Feeling present, feeling calm and relaxed in your body. So the onus of one. And if you’re listening to this recording at night, just a moment and turning it off and having a deep, restful sleep that will take you all the way through till morning. And if you’re listening to this recording the day feels as if you just had a fantastic night’s sleep coming into full awareness, taking some deep breaths, feeling energy is circulating up your back and down your front through the microcosmic orbit.

Abby (00:17:49) Feeling your tree roots anchored into the Earth and feeling the energy circulating through your tree roots up your back and down your front. And clap your hands and have them create heat. When you feel that heat in the palm of your hands, cupping your hands over your eyes, bring the heat in through your eyes and down to your belly three times. I’m washing your face, head, neck, and shoulders and down your body.

Abby (00:18:30) All right. Thank you for going on that journey. I hope you enjoyed your ceremonial rite of passage from 2021 and 2022. All right. So now is a great time to grab a pen and some paper and do some journaling. From what you discovered in your journey, you can do a stream of consciousness churning, journeying about things that stood out to you, and just let that flow, which can be a great way of bringing the subconscious into your conscious awareness. And from there, I would then make two lists of everything that you’ve let go of that you’re leaving behind and releasing from 2021 and all that you’re stepping into in 2022 into this next chapter of your life.

Abby (00:19:21) So thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions, reach out. And if you’re curious about the mentor classes that these recordings are from a run for six months, we connect each week with really intimate class size, and together we heal, connect with our inner wisdom and purpose and share our medicine with the world. So if that sounds like something that is calling to you, you can learn more at Registration for this class closes on January 13th.

Abby (00:19:57) So if you’re feeling cold, don’t hesitate to schedule a free discovery call and see if this is right for you. All right. Thank you so much. I’m Abigail Moss. You can reach me on Instagram and Facebook @yourmindbodyfree as well as And if you love this journey, I encourage you to share it around with anyone else you think may benefit from it. And if you like and subscribe and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, that helps more people to find this kind of work. So thank you so much. Wishing you a beautiful, phenomenal, expansive 2022, and talk soon.


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Leisia Shopik: A Healer’s Journey

06 leisia shopik healer's journey
healer's journey leisia shopik

Leisia Shopik: A Healer's Journey

Leisia Shopik shares a healer’s journey with us, what it was like going from studying to be an architect to training as a shaman and working with plant medicines in Peru. Leisia is an incredibly gifted healer, and she’s the one who guided me into training in Shamanic Chinese Medicine, which lead me to the incredible path I’m on now. I’m deeply grateful for Leisia, her light, her gentleness, and her many gifts.

Connect with Leisia:



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Looking for more support?

Schedule a free discovery call here

Learn more about my 6-month Mentorship Program here.



Full Show Transcript

Abby (00:00:00):

Hello, and welcome to the mindbodyfree podcast. I am your host Abigail Moss, and here we unpack what it means to heal and step into your power. And you’ll find here a blend of interviews with other healers, thought leaders, and creatives, as well as live coaching sessions and guided meditations by yours. Truly, if you like what you hear, you can subscribe to the show and leave us a review, and you can learn more about what we do as well as sign up for live coaching at So without further ado, enjoy. Okay. So this conversation is with a good friend of mine and a huge inspiration. Her name is Leisia Shopik. She is a medical Qigong therapist and shamanic healer. She’s been on an incredible journey and continues to go on and a beautiful and incredible journey of, healing, shamanism, plant medicines of medicine, songs of just discovery and awakening and transformation. And she’s the one that inspired me to step onto the path of shamanic healing. And I’m so truly, and deeply grateful for her and all that she does and all the light that she brings into the world. And you’ll want to listen right to the end for this one because she shares an incredibly beautiful and powerful healing song that I don’t want you to miss. So without further ado, please enjoy. Welcome. Thank you for being here.

Leisia (00:01:54):

Ah, thank you, Abby. It’s awesome. It’s awesome to be here.

Abby (00:01:57):

So why don’t you talk a little bit about your journey of becoming a medical qigong therapist and coming to Shamanic Healer?

Leisia (00:02:06):

Okay. Well, I suppose medical qigong came out of my experiences in the jungle. So you and I met in the jungle of Peru. We were at a plant healing center and I was at a retreat center and we met while we were volunteering there. And before that, I had come down twice. That was back in, gosh, must have been 2013 now. Nope, Nope. 2014 or 15. I went for my first retreat and it changed my life, to say the least. But one of the things that did happen was when I got home from that first retreat, I started experiencing vibration and energy in my body and I had never experienced anything like it before. And, I kinda called it energy attacks cause I’d be in a deep sound sleep. And I would wake up to this vibrating feeling in my body and I found it fascinating, but I didn’t know what it was.

Leisia (00:03:09):

So it was kind of alarming at the same time. And, through some serendipitous events, I ended up finding Wendy laying on an empty mountain. Who’s now our teacher, who teaches medical qigong, which is an ancient form of Chinese energetic shamanism. It’s the meditation and breathwork and energy awareness practice that allowed them to discover the Meridian lines and how energy moves through the body, which allowed them to develop things like acupuncture and acupressure 5,000 years ago. So it’s, and when I found that and started working with Wendy, it normalized so many things for me and it made the world make sense. It was just the things that I was learning that just blew my mind every time I would just like I learned something, you’d be like what they knew about that back then. How do we forget about that? So, the plant medicine journey kind of led me to the energy work that I currently do and I’m currently studying.

Abby (00:04:09):

Awesome. I agree. It is amazing stuff. And it does make sense of reality.

Abby (00:04:16):

Like what’s going

Abby (00:04:17):

On, being on this planet and the universe, what is that all about actually? Yeah. Okay. So you, you, you went to Peru, you had some powerful ceremonies there and you came back and you had energy tax is an interesting term. I was like, yeah, you feel the energy in your body. And it feels like an attack. Like this is different.

Leisia (00:04:41):

I have never really felt the energy in my body before. And it was so intense, that it would wake me up and that’s why I kind of, kind of coined it an energy attack. And it wasn’t a violent thing that sounded violent, but it was more just random and unexpected and unanticipated and the randomness of it. And the intenseness of it, the fact that it would wake me out of deep sleep in the middle of the night, just, and, and it would just literally be like shaking, like internal, external, just energy moving, and super, super intense. And, you know, so I would, I was paying attention to it. I was breathing into it. I didn’t, I was trying to see if I could do anything with it and, you know, it would always eventually subside. But yeah, just the randomness about it just made it just feel like all of a sudden they just had an energy kind of a burst, I suppose you could call it. But to me, I just make that. Hmm.

Abby (00:05:39):

It’s interesting. And I’m gonna, what I want to ask, like what you would call it now after years of training, but I can also relate, through doing the qigong and shamanic work and through Ayahuasca waking up another part of you that feels in a different level. Yep.

Leisia (00:05:59):

It kind of opened me up to the subtle realms of reality and subtle realms of perception and energies and subtleties of things. What would I call it now? I would probably just recognize that it’s energy moving. So, and I do believe that the reason it would happen often at night is kind of when we assimilate all the information from the day and any, any emotional events or any events that we have kind of worked through our system. They work through our brains, they work through our energy. And so I feel like I was unraveling and getting rid of a lot of knotted up energy, a lot of nodded up emotion, energy in motion, emotion. And as that was working out of my system, it was a very visceral experience. I went to the jungle, as a trained architect with a very Western mindset, you know, as a child, I was very imaginative and very creative and had all kinds of fantasies about things, you know, talking to plants and talking to animals.

Leisia (00:07:09):

But at a certain point, I kind of turned that off as make-believe, and kind of, I didn’t realize that I bound a lot of stuff up and wound myself up. As the educational system architecture in particular is a very hyper-competitive industry and it’s a hyper-competitive education. And so it, you, my system was fully ratcheted up and just used to go, go, go, go, go. You know, you’re, you’re talking about being up for three, four days straight to finish a final project. So, you know, my system was very tense and on high alert and there was a lot that needed to kind of wind down and relax and open up. And so I feel like the attacks quote-unquote were energy starting to surface and unwind and release for being so wound up for so long.

Abby (00:07:59):

That makes a lot of sense. Energy is not, I don’t believe any of our energy is meant to be in that high alert, tense awake for four days.

Leisia (00:08:10):

Oh no, we don’t realize how many of us live in a fight or flight daily.

Abby (00:08:16):

Absolutely. And so when you were younger, you had this kind of inclination to talk with animals to talk with plants, that you later called make-believe. Was there a moment or was it a gradual progression that led from calling that make-believe and not real and diving into this really kind of almost opposite ends of the spectrum intensive, competitive rigorous architecture world?

Leisia (00:08:49):

Hm. You know, I feel like it was probably, it wasn’t one acute thing that made me kind of shut down and stop. I feel like it was just kind of, a gradual process of whittling away at it. Like, you know, I, when after high school I went straight into art college, very creative, very open, very dynamic, very kind of, you would think very much in line with inner energetics and stuff like that. However, for me, I was hungry for practical application and I didn’t sink into art in my early twenties because I felt like I didn’t have enough life experience, like real legitimate life experience to say anything really rich and meaningful. And so I didn’t dive into my art that wasn’t necessarily true. But that’s what I felt at the time. And so I was very much in search of something very practical and very applicable and architecture fit that bill because it’s that creative side, but you have a design parameter, so you have a design problem.

Leisia (00:10:00):

So you’ve got your fence around the playground, so to speak. So you can push the envelope as much as you want to, and be hyper, hyper-creative within a framework. And, I was looking for that, but the process of learning about architecture, the process in any university is you’re learning how to think in an industry in that industry jargon. Does that make sense? Yeah. And that involves a very destructive unwinding process. So you kind of break everything down, you break down how you see the world, and then you build it up with these parameters and these specific ways of viewing and understanding and looking at the world that is in line with, you know, for me, so architecture and the built environment, and how do you look at space and looking how you move through space and looking at how space affects us very greatly on our, on our day-to-day lives, but we’re not aware of it on a conscious level and learning how to manipulate that and the importance of it.

Leisia (00:11:03):

So you, it’s a, it was a very wonderful process, but it kind of brought in this hyper-drive of analysis, I suppose, which kind of tampered that creative, liberal, you know, like everything has to be able to be buildable. So everything has to be able to be articulated or, or realized or figured out. So that kind of brings things out of like the fine art realm of, of totally pure just fund imagination too. There’s that with, with the practical real life, actualization of something. And so I suppose through that whole process, that hyper-analytical, calculating, analyzing how to, you know, like, it’s, like, if you think of a well-built building, you don’t think about it when you’re in it, you just experience it. It feels good. You’re like, I like going to this place. It feels good to sit in this room, but we don’t necessarily take the time to understand why, and to be able to do that, to be able to get somebody to stop and like to look at their space and to have it be very clean and simple is a very big process. It’s really easy to make something complicated. It’s very difficult to make something simple and complex at the same time.

Abby (00:12:29):

Okay. Absolutely. The mind has all kinds of ways of creating noise to pull those pieces away and then distill it down to something that is, every part of it is, is integral and adds to the overall, best of it.

Leisia (00:12:49):

Everything is good to have everything be considered and everything to be considered within a certain idea or theme, with the program. So like if it’s a school or if it’s a church or if it’s an airport, to have it fit that program, but also have it be, you know, well, I want it to feel very light and open and spacious and have lots of natural light or natural ventilation. To keep it clean really takes a lot. Yeah. So it’s, it’s a lot of training to get there and that, I suppose, really, you, you develop a lot of processes. The architectural process is quite long and there’s a lot of front-end work that gets done that most people don’t even really see before you even get to the building part of it. And I feel like that got articulated and spilled out into the rest of my life.

Abby (00:13:43):

It’s really interesting. Cause I, I kind of see it energetically as like the creative chaos is like the feminine energy and then the linear structure that supports creating it in the physical world is like the masculine aspect of it. And so it’s like kind of diving into the masculine so that it can be created so we can walk and live in it and it won’t collapse on us and it’ll

Leisia (00:14:10):

Feel good.

Abby (00:14:14):

It feels to me, tell me where I’m wrong. Like you kind of, you were in this flow and connected with plants, with animals and then you dove into, or you looked at art, which is like the feminine creative process and then went into, okay, let’s contain that. Let’s make a container for it that we can, I can be a container for humans, understand the process that’s involved in that. And then you went a whole different direction.

Leisia (00:14:44):

Exploded. It exploded.

Abby (00:14:49):

You, when you get, when it gets to, it just needs to be explored.

Leisia (00:14:54):

Well, and sometimes just when you, when you feel something, you just have to go with it, even though you don’t necessarily rationally understand why, or, or even feel confident in it, you just know that it’s the direction you need to move in.

Abby (00:15:08):

And so I’m assuming that you’re talking about feeling called to try to be with Ayahuasca may be in the jungle.

Leisia (00:15:16):

Definitely. I mean, we all feel compelled and get messages in different ways. And with Ayahuasca, for me, it was, I’ve been hearing about it. I had a very good friend who was, who had participated in ceremonies fairly regularly and you know, I’d always thought, that’d be, that’d be an interesting thing too, to work with. It sounds fascinating. And life-changing, however, it sounds like it’d be very good for someone with a lot of trauma or a lot of pain or a lot to work through and maybe I’ll just leave it for, they never really became a priority so to speak. And then, I suppose just the way that the medicine came to me as I was living in Mexico. I was dating someone and he had worked for us coast guard and had debilitating PTSD.

Leisia (00:16:09):

And we were talking and in a conversation with some friends and Ayahuasca came up and after that conversation, he was like, you know, we were talking about how this medicine, they don’t know how it works, but they know that it like the way your brain works is we have neural associations. So you have a triggering event on the outside. And we have a neural pathway that creates an association and those associations are created early on in life. And what the medicine does somehow this plant medicine will go straight to the root event of the trauma and create a new neural pathway of association. So it was a quick example and I know, you know, all of this, but it, like if you get bit by a dog when you’re younger, you might wire your brain to be afraid of dogs.

Leisia (00:16:57):

Your brain might associate dogs, equal danger. And so if you work with the medicine, you’ll work through that trauma and realize, not all dogs equal danger, and then you’ll have a new neural pathway. So after this conversation, he looked at me and he’s like, that is, I never want to do that. That sounds terrifying to sit with my thoughts and sit with, sit with all my trauma and my experiences, no way, fast forward, a few months he sent me an email and he was like, I’ve been doing a lot of research and there’s more and more research about it indicating that it does help with PTSD specifically and other ailments. But for this, it was like, it might help me. I want to go sit with the medicine, but I’m terrified. And so indirectly, I was asked to come to the jungle.

Leisia (00:17:41):

And I just was so touched at the courage that I saw for someone willing to step through a lot of very trauma that I went and, yeah, everything, the rest is kind of history, as they say, right. I went to one retreat and then six months later went to my second retreat and was asked to come back and volunteer. I spent some time in the Andes working in studying because I didn’t feel confident being in the jungle without any real in-depth experience with the plants. And then, I went for six months and stayed for over two years in the jungle.

Abby (00:18:22):

Beautiful. So you get a call from somebody else?

Leisia (00:18:28):

Well, I went under the pretense that I was going to help somebody else. Ha little did I know I’m just going for me. You don’t sit with the medicine for anybody else.

Abby (00:18:41):

No. Whatever it takes though, right?

Leisia (00:18:44):

It was a pretty phenomenal experience. I didn’t necessarily go. I wasn’t, you know, I was, I was pretty excited. I was in architecture thinking that that was where I wanted to be. Not realizing how kind of ratcheted or amped up or busy I was in life. And, I was resistant to go back a second time after the first time I thought that was wow, profound, amazing. I’m going to go back. I’m probably planning to pursue a Ph.D. in architecture to look at the kind of helping the world through sustainable design, sustainable building principles. And really, I wanted to be at the forefront of that. So I was having interviews with different props around the world, looking at pursuing a Ph.D., getting reference letters, all pulled together. And in the middle of all this, I got another, I got a phone call from the same person that I was dating.

Leisia (00:19:37):

He was traveling a lot. So he phoned me from abroad and he was like, we need to go back. And he was on one of his trips and I was like, Nah, I’m good. You go back. I’m all right. I don’t need to go back. And he pushed and he pushed and he pushed until finally a week out. I was like, I thought I could outsmart things. And I was like, all right, it’s a week out. If there’s still space, I’ll go thinking that there wasn’t going to be any space. So he sent me a text a few minutes late. I was like, there was a spot you’re in. We’re going. It was just like, we’re going again. But here’s the crazy part about the medicine in my first ceremony, back in the jungle, my second retreat, right before we went to go and drink the medicine, my friend got terrified and ran out of the Maloca or the ceremony space and the facilitators there sat with him and convinced him to sit and stay and just sit outside.

Leisia (00:20:33):

So in the ceremony space, everyone took the medicine. And I remember after taking the medicine, just thinking like, wow, it doesn’t just feel like he got scared. It feels like he wasn’t invited into this space. That’s weird. And so to know, I’ll ask this won’t sound hokey for people who don’t, you’re working the indigenous belief. I also believe that plants have spirits. They’re there, they’re beings, they’re sentient beings. And when you’re working with them and vibing them, you’re inviting those spirits into your body and you’re working with them. And sometimes you hear their voices very clearly. Like they’re speaking out loud. And so I had one of those situations in this ceremony where I was thinking like, I am like, why was he not allowed in the ceremony space? Why does it feel like he’s not allowed in? And I’ve got a very crystal clear answer and it was he and I have done a lot of work together, but we’re done for now.

Leisia (00:21:23):

He needs to take a break. His whole reason for coming back was to bring you back because you weren’t going to come back and you needed to. And my first thought was whoa. And then, and then it was like, come on. Who do you think you are? What kind of self-importance is it like getting off your high horse, all those thoughts. So this is continued with the ceremony. I stayed in the sacred space. Didn’t leave, didn’t see him for the rest of the night until the next morning. And that’s important because the next morning we hadn’t talked about the ceremony. I hadn’t seen him. And he came and found me and the next morning and was like, how was your ceremony? I was like, it was really good. He’s like, cool. I need to tell you something that happened at my ceremony. I was like, okay, what happened?

Leisia (00:22:10):

And he was like, well, I’m sitting outside the Maloca space, a ceremony space. And it just, I got scared, but I felt like I was shooting out. If I felt like I was just told to get out and I couldn’t go back in. And that was confusing. And so sitting with the facilitators and I had a little sip, and then when I was on the medicine, I was like, I still can’t. I feel like I can’t go into the Maloca space. Why is that? So I’m asking for the medicine and I’m inquiring. And she gave me this, I heard this crystal clear voice, and this is X. And this is him telling me this story. And he said this is exactly what she said to me. And I need you to hear it. She said, we’ve worked together a lot, but we’re done for now. We’ll work together again in the future. The whole reason you had to come back was to bring Lasher back because she wasn’t going to, and this was the only way to get her back. And it was just, and I hadn’t talked to him yet and I hadn’t that hadn’t been verbalized that loud. It was, it blew my mind. It was weird. So that was kind of one of those he’s got to trust.

Abby (00:23:09):

Trust. It is mind-blowing. And the more you’re in the more you, the longer you’re there, the more normal that stuff

Leisia (00:23:19):

Becomes. Oh yeah. Still

Leisia (00:23:22):

Magical. And it’s still fun. I like to take moments

Leisia (00:23:26):

To revel in serendipities like that and just acknowledge them because I’m very grateful for them because I, to me, they’re just a reminder that magic is real. And I like that.

Abby (00:23:38):

That’s nice. Yeah. It’s nice to have those confirmations from the universe. Like, Hey, by the way, magic is real

Leisia (00:23:46):

Just in case you forgot. Yes. And it’s working with you.

Abby (00:23:51):

It was working with you cause you were called there and there’s a lot of effort that went into bringing you there.

Leisia (00:24:01):

It was wonderful. Yeah. I found my heart there and I never would have known to look. Hmm.

Abby (00:24:11):

So what does it mean to find your heart? What was it like to find your heart? Oh, well

Leisia (00:24:18):

I fell in love with the jungle. I fell in love with the shoe people’s culture, and I loved the work. I loved what I saw. Like my Western mind saw things that weren’t possible. I saw healings that I just like blew my mind. I remember when I was in the Andes apprenticing, working with the shaman to learn more about plant medicines, to see if it was like, well, what is this stuff? And there was a fellow that had Parkinson’s disease and so bad that he had tremors down the left side of his body. And he couldn’t use his left hand and couldn’t walk properly. And he wasn’t sitting with Ayahuasca. He was working with other plant medicines. He had a very specific diet. He had a very specific kind of routine. And, after the first three days of this routine, I woke up one day and he was chopping wood and he chopped firewood for half a day and his body wasn’t trembling.

Leisia (00:25:15):

It wasn’t shaking. And he had full physical control of his body. And when I saw that, I was just like, what, what the hell? It was the most amazing thing. And, he stayed on and he had it as I said, it was very specific like the whole jungle is a Pharmacopia of plants. We tend to focus on the big, heavy hitters, but the whole jungle. Sometimes you don’t even need to sit with Ayahuasca depending on what you’re there for. But, anyway, I digress that cracked me open, through some other serendipitous events, I ended up going into the deep jungle and studying with the shoe people, maze thrill, which is a master plant Shaman you know, historically that would have been the Shaman of, of the village, who, the medicine man of the village. And he was phenomenal.

Leisia (00:26:11):

And, on one of my plant diets, I was dieting a very sacred tree. The tree is called a noodle. And, I was meditating by this tree that I was dieting to basically, yeah. Just sitting in the jungle by myself, meditating and all of us. I hadn’t ever wanted kids, even as a child. I was adamant that I didn’t want kids. I didn’t like kids. I didn’t like babysitting. I wasn’t fuzzy and warm with kids. I just wasn’t comfortable with them. I never wanted one. I’d always thought I was very career-focused and career-driven. So I’m sitting underneath this tree and all of a sudden, my eyes pop open, and out loud, I blurt out I want to be a mother. And then I burst into tears and it was just the weirdest thing, because being a mother was foreign to me, absolutely foreign. And I just had this huge cry and I realized, oh my God, I want to be a mother. Yeah. And at, in, at the Ayahuasca center that I had actually, at this time I was running an Ayahuasca center now. And, the person I was running it with was also my romantic partner who is now my husband and we have a son. And so I found my heart and my family in the jungle by following my heart and following my joy because it was, yeah, no, that’s beautiful.

Abby (00:27:44):

Just, just by following, having, by trusting, having faith to be, permit yourself to follow your heart.

Leisia (00:27:52):

Yeah. And it was all following. Like I didn’t seek any of it out really. I didn’t ask to go volunteer. They asked me, I didn’t ask to run the center. They asked me if I was having a conversation with one of our friends and we were volunteering at the center together at that time. And he mid-sentence stops and he’s very intuitive and he’s very flowy. Like he’s, this is a wonderful individual and he’d stop and look at me and he says, I’m, I’m going into the deep jungle over the break you should come to. And it was so random that I was like, okay, all right. And we went on this trip up to Wiki dos, which is the biggest city in the world that you can’t access by car. You have to take a boat or you have to fly in. So there are no roads out of it.

Leisia (00:28:42):

There’s a road. There’s a highway that goes out of a ketose and ends in the forest. That’s it just ends the jungle and you’ve arrived. Yeah, you’re here. So if you drive out of the city, you’re going to end up at a dead-end into the Amazon forest. And so that’s what we did. We, he was adamant on going to see his mind, his master showman that he was studying with, and this is where we were going, but he’s in the jungle. So we couldn’t get in touch with him. So we flagged a car and got a ride and we’re off on this highway and we were on this highway for about an hour. And then he’s like, now we get out. When we hike, we’re hiking into the jungle and there’s a dirt road. No, one’s expecting us. It’s like being in the jungle. And it’s wild to me. Like, where are we going? What are we doing? And we get to this camp. And it was just a, and that’s how I met actually at the time I met Don Enrico, who was my me, I swear. I met his brother, Don Miguel. And we sat with the medicine and I came back a few later and stayed for nine weeks and worked with the plants in-depth. But that all came from trusting and flowing.

Leisia (00:29:51):

Beautiful. It’s powerful. It’s a good reminder for me too. Cause man, let me tell you when you’ve got a kid it’s easy to not want to flow and it’s easy to want to plan everything and try to bubble, wrap them and create the perfect environment. You shall be safe in that bubble forever. Yes, exactly. I will. You are in situ on the shelf. Perfect.

Abby (00:30:21):

So once I left, I got you back the second time, you followed the flow and what was it like learning. So you took training to learn how to be an Ayahuasca. You learn how to be an Ayahuasca Shaman. I did. What was that journey like?

Leisia (00:30:38):

I loved it. It was amazing. I was very scared of it because it’s intense. My relationship with medicine is a little bit different than others in that I’ve never been afraid to sit in medicine. I’ve always been like, this is, let’s see where this goes, but I’ve never been like, oh my God, it’s, you know, I’ve never been scared and I’ve always had a certain weird level of trust. But I was very afraid of going into the deep jungle because I heard that it was very arduous and you’re in the jungle. You don’t have power. We had running water, which was phenomenal. Like they’d set up the camp well so that we had running water, but there’s no cell service. I didn’t know what to expect. And it’s every second day you’re sitting in a ceremony.

Leisia (00:31:30):

You’re also like I said, you’re studying other plants as well. So Shaman, don’t administer anything that they haven’t tried themselves. Cause you have to work with the plant and develop a relationship with the spirit of the plant and understand how it works. And so that means taking a lot of them are prerogatives and a lot of them are, are, it’s pretty intense, but it was, it was amazing. And, and while we’re also doing that, you’re dieting. So the way that you study plants, you don’t just sweep. We sat in a couple of lectures and Rica would speak and kind of give us information. But really what you’re doing is you’re spending a lot of time in isolation. You’re spending a lot of time fasting and you’re ingesting certain master plants and through meditation and quiet, you’re connecting within and you’re developing resonance with the energy of that plant.

Leisia (00:32:25):

And the best example I can give you as to how the difference or how extreme the different plant energies can feel is I was dieting a plant called Marusa, which should people talk about as a hospital? Like it’s a very big healing plant. And when you die at any plant, you have to fast and you have a very specific diet. So your energy is relatively low and, but you still want to get exercise in this camp. So every day I would walk to the road and back just to get to stretch my legs, to move on the Marissa diet. There were days where I couldn’t, there were days where I could hardly walk from the Maloca space up to my hot, to my Tombo. And that was like, I don’t know, 20, 30 yards away and up to three steps. On some days it would be like, I’d walk up a step and just sit and have to breathe and catch my breath.

Leisia (00:33:23):

Like I was so depleted the diet I did afterward is a diet of a tree called chewy Chucky, which is like the trickster energy. It’s the wandering Palm. It’s an actual tree that has multiple trunks at the bottom and certain trunks lift and die off and then other ones grow. So it gradually walks through the jungle. That’s incredible. Yeah. It’s just, it’s a cool treat. Plants are just phenomenal. And on, on this diet, the same thing, you’re fasting, you’ve got a very specific diet, same diet, same amount of days fasting. And I walked the road twice a day, the whole diet,

Abby (00:34:04):

No problem, no problem. I had

Leisia (00:34:06):

So much energy and I was still fasting. And when I was eating, I was in the very same minimal limited amount of foods and the same amount of isolation in the same amount of meditation. And that’s all the energy of the plants.

Abby (00:34:20):

Yeah. And the minimum of foods and fascinating that’s so that you can hear the subtlety of the plan.

Leisia (00:34:27):

Yeah. So when you’re doing the ETA, traditionally data’s are many months long and they’re done in complete isolation. It’s just you in a hot way off in the jungle. And the only thing that you’re meant to ingest is the plant that you’re dieting with water, and then you work with tobacco as a cleanser and it also energizes it. And, and that’s it. When you shower, you’re typically just using water because you don’t want any there’s no, there’s no bug spray. There are no appointments, there’s no shampoos or conditioners and or deodorant because all of those things, kind of distort, they create extra static and you want it, the energy and the air and the environment to be as clean, as neutral as possible. So that’s just you in the plant. There’s nothing else.

Abby (00:35:27):

Well, it’s incredible to think about that. And you think about how many layers of static we add typically to our lives and, you know, Western society, our homes, and all of the products and the foods and the electronics and traffic, like, you know, I think we, we forget sometimes how different our world is to our nervous system than the world that we were designed to originally live in the wild.

Leisia (00:35:57):

That’s a really good point and very, very true. And it’s, it’s fascinating to see how, when you take everything away, you know, I noticed before that, in the middle of this whole experience, as they tell you your thoughts are also that kind of static. And one of the things that they let you know is likely to happen at our still let us know it was likely to happen is you’re probably going to start thinking about foods and you don’t want to go down the train of building the thoughts of, I miss chocolate cake. Grandma’s pizza is those, those are or sugar, like anything like that, because that’s creating that storyline of that craving and that’s amplifying and building and you want to be clean and your diet, the reason you’re not eating those things is that it’s not clean. So you also don’t want them polluting your thoughts. So it’s, it’s, it’s a very, you’re just like keeping everything clean, clean, clean, and empty. And when you do that, you realize how much we feed ourselves to distraction. And not just with food, just like occupying our times with visual, physical, mental distraction.

Abby (00:37:12):

What would happen if we just took all those distractions away and we sat with ourselves and then, and that’s the layers, and I think you mentioned you’d done for passing a meditation too. And then they talk about that a lot there and in Buddhism of that craving and aversion. So we, our mind creates all these cravings for things we want, whether it’s food or a person or a career or an object, and then aversion to the discomfort, to the pain, and to the fear of just being with ourselves. And it’s interesting because at first it usually sucks. After all, all of the thoughts come up, all the cravings, all the detoxing, and it takes a while to get to peel off those layers. But then the reward is so worth it to get to meet yourself.

Leisia (00:38:07):

And it continues. Right. Yeah. They call that the hungry ghost because it’s never satiated. It’s, it’s not a thing, but yeah, the craving is the hungry ghost, and yeah. It’s shocking to see what we avoid looking at and what we avoid sitting within. The whole serious irony that you’ve come to, the realization that you’ve come to when you strip all of that away is if you just sit with it far, far less uncomfortable.

Abby (00:38:39):

Yeah. Then

Leisia (00:38:41):

Trying to placate it, cause then you’re repeating the discomfort. You’re suppressing it so that it just stays there and kind of grows as it’s like an itch. It’s like an itchy bug bite. Whereas if you just don’t scratch it and leave it, it goes away a lot faster. Yeah,

Abby (00:38:54):

Exactly. If you keep feeding the hungry ghost, it’ll just keep consuming and consuming. And we see evidence of that on our planet and our society of needing more, wanting more. But it is never enough as long as we keep feeding it. And as long as we have that belief, I feel like the outer world reflects the inner world. And if on some level we don’t believe we’re enough, then it won’t matter how much stuff you try to shove in there until you realize who you are. Behave beliefs like that.

Leisia (00:39:31):

I agree. And I feel like that happens in many expressions. I know of my main practice. Lee’s relationship is continually letting each other go because that reminds us that there’s nothing to be afraid of. We’re here because we want to be with each other. We don’t have to be with each other and that takes away any kind of frustration or expectation. And that helps also take away any fear because it’s the fear of the discomfort of the loss. Well, if you’re letting that person go continuously, then you’re able to continuously appreciate them because you’re never assuming that they’re just, they’re not beholden to you. And it’s not an easy practice, but it’s certainly served us very well.

Abby (00:40:24):

The practice of non-attachment with your spouse, like the most difficult of all to practice attachment

Leisia (00:40:31):

With. Yeah. And it means that we can sit and have very, very real conversations. You know, we’re not rude with each other, but we share our deep truth at the risk of you might not like this truth, but I have to share it because it’s my truth. And we do those deep dives and we go to those scary places and it’s always brought us closer to, to sit and see it through, but men, yeah. It’s we, we go there, there’s some conversation, especially in the beginning when we’re getting to know each other, there’ll be times where we’re like, are we going to make it through this one? I don’t know. You know, you’re talking about a tender subject where you don’t see eye to eye, but you, you want to find that you’re that, that resonance. So you’ve got to sit through and keep talking, keep diving and keep diving. And it’s always brought us to the surface and closer. But you can’t have that if you’re afraid of affecting the other person or losing the other person losing the other, a person’s more accurate because we’re not rude. We do our best to be as loving with our truth because that’s important. Love and respect are fundamental. So I’m not talking about just like, you were up Today.

Abby (00:41:46):

Truth Is that you’re a jerk. Not like that.

Leisia (00:41:50):

Yeah. I mean, we can say that, but we can say that in a very loving way.

Abby (00:41:56):

Yeah. And it’s beautiful that you’re both at that place and a level of openness and willingness to do that work because it does take to, to, to go there and to go to those places.

Leisia (00:42:08):

Oh my gosh. It does. And it’s not, I mean, there are times, you know, we’re having a conversation and it’s resistance and you know, I don’t know how many times I’ve been in that zone and he’s like, come on, we got to finish this. Great. Just like sitting down. And like, we’re gonna, you know, takes as long as it takes, we’re doing it. And like, You’re right. Okay. Breathe into the discomfort and let’s keep diving.

Abby (00:42:36):

Absolutely. Yeah. And then it gets to be that place. I felt that too with Dave where, you know, oh my goodness, this is not comfortable or we’re going to get through this. I don’t know. You know, I think it should just jump, ship, and run that. I think that’s the best thing to do right now.

Leisia (00:42:52):

This feeling sucks. I want a new experience. Right.

Abby (00:42:55):

Because we all just want to feel good. So it’s like letting the mind know that, you know, the truth, the true happiness is on the other side of the discomfort. So let’s get through it and let’s dive into it together.

Leisia (00:43:08):

Yes, absolutely.

Abby (00:43:12):

Beautiful. Okay. So let’s go back to the jungle. So you had these data’s and you’re connecting with these plants, and then you were running the retreat center with your now-husband, which is amazing, by the way. I didn’t realize that was the new title, how beautiful congratulations. And, and then what,

Leisia (00:43:40):

Ah, well, we were running the retreat center and we both loved the work, loved working with the plants, loved the community, and loved living in a community. And at the same time, we both realized that we were in a place where we could have stayed forever, but we weren’t ever going to reach that next level of growth. We both felt a ceiling and it was a really hard thing to admit when you are somewhere where you’re absolutely happy through and through, and you love the work that you’re doing. It was a difficult decision to leave the jungle. we had been asked to potentially run another retreat center. So it was work that was very much in our hearts. And I remember having that conversation when we were sitting down and I looked at Lee and I was like, cause that was my dream.

Leisia (00:44:36):

I loved the work. I loved being immersed in that, in the, going even deeper into the jungle and working with more plants and stuff was just, and doing research was just this dream come true. But I, when I sat and breathed into it, I looked at, I was like, I, I want to, but if I’m honest with myself, that feels like the easy way out. The easy thing to do is to sit with the medicine. And, so we decided to, just to trust that, to trust the heart. And we came back to Canada and it’s been a beautiful rollercoaster integrating living in the jungle, living outside of the system very much. So living outside of the medical system, living outside of a governance system, living with, living with the Shapebos, to come back to Canada and then to be around family as well, who knew us pre jungle. And, and it’s been, and I, I see crystal clear why we came back, you know, cause you have to, I think it was Rahm Doss. He says it so beautifully and concisely. He said at one point, if you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your family.

Leisia (00:45:54):

We’d love it. Cause that’s where all of your triggers are gonna come right back in your face, all your patterns, all of your resistances, all of that stuff. And it’s really easy to get into a flow of being in a comfortable space, in a comfortable setting. But for us to kind of crack that shell and grow, even more, we had to come home and walk that walk here and, and, and test our metal so to speak. And it’s been wonderful and it’s been a cool journey and it continues to open and unfold and yeah, yeah.

Abby (00:46:26):

And then that integration process, that’s what they call it in the Ayahuasca world.

Leisia (00:46:34):

Yeah. You learn all these lessons and have these amazing insights in these ceremonies and all these healings. And then the science of it would say you’ve developed a new neurological association, but you still have this deeply entrenched association. So you have to go back and use practices like mindfulness, meditation breathing, to start to get that new neural pathway worn in because it’s very easy when you go back to a familiar environment around familiar people to just flip back to the old neurological association that the previous behavioral patterns and that’s the challenge of it. And that’s the integration that’s, that’s what you’re integrating is, is being hyper mindful and aware so that you’re not just flipping back into this entrenched pattern to, to dig into a new association, to expand and keep those insights functional. Yeah. Yeah.

Abby (00:47:37):

And it’s that balance when you’re at the retreat center you’re fully immersed or this beautiful open-hearted community that understands it to like gets it that is there for you that is loving and magic everywhere, the medicine, which opens you up to even more magic everywhere. And it’s beautiful nature and this cleanness of all of that of no, no static around and then coming back and then it hits the fan.

Leisia (00:48:06):

It’s real life. It’s like, how do you navigate to it, yeah, it’s absolutely that. And it’s, and it’s, and that’s been necessary, like I see how some people are meant to stay in the jungle and some people are meant to, to stay there. And some people get stuck there because it’s easy. It becomes the safe thing, the familiar thing, the comfortable thing. Cause it was very uncomfortable to come back and kind of get reoriented and, and figure out how to stay feeling connected to that. It’s a very spiritual thing. Like both Leah and I firmly feel like the plant medicine, some work we did, it’s highly spiritual and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like religion to us. It is religion. It’s a church. And how do you maintain that connection and how do you remember that and stay in that place when you’re in a world that isn’t reminding you every moment of every day, because you’re not in the jungle, living in the land with the plants and the medicine.

Abby (00:49:14):

Yeah. Yeah.

Abby (00:49:17):

Do you feel like that’s part of what medicine wants us to call us there to remember and then bring that awareness out into the world? That’s a great

Leisia (00:49:27):

Question. Yes, hugely. It was Lee who kind of put it well. He talks about how, when you’re working with the medicines, you’re not just having an experience with the plants. The plants are also occupying your body and having an experience through you and your being. And when you work with the medicines and you have the fortunate opportunity to heal and to kind of wake up to a new level of awareness, I feel that you become an ambassador of the medicine. You represent the medicine because you’re representing all the possible potential realities and the love that was, that came out of that healing or that awakening or that, that sacred experience. And that’s exactly, we need to be walking more of that walk, you know, you open your eyes to see how, wow, we’re all just adults, but acting out our, our, our traumas and our hurts from when we were toddlers and babies and children.

Leisia (00:50:45):

And with this level of unawareness and dissociation and detachment, if we remembered in every waking moment that we are divine beings having a human experience and that we are all of the same divinity, then I would remember constantly that you are me. And you’re a reflection of me and I wouldn’t dare to be rude or condescending or treat you poorly in any way, because I would know that I’m treating myself poorly and our world would be a very different place. And those are the things, you know, when you’re in the jungle, those are the things you experience when you sit with people in the medicine.

Abby (00:51:28):


Abby (00:51:30):

Do you feel like we’re moving towards that, that place of remembering that we are these divine beings having a human experience that is all connected?

Leisia (00:51:40):

I feel so. I feel like even if it’s not on a conscious level, we’re all striving for connection. It’s, it’s a, it’s an interesting piece of the human condition to me that we are so socially reliant and socially connected. And yet we are all dying to be ourselves and express, but we all have this fearfully expressing ourselves. And the way that that gets articulated in quilts and others is that we try to shut someone down for shining too much or saying too much or being themselves too much because it makes us uncomfortable. After all, we don’t allow ourselves to express ourselves fully. I feel like that’s very much the case because fundamentally everybody wants that.

Leisia (00:52:26):

Yeah. Everybody

Leisia (00:52:27):

Wants to belong and be loved for themselves, wholly and completely and fully.

Abby (00:52:35):

Absolutely. Yeah. It feels like the work that I was doing. And then a lot of healers are doing it similarly. And I love when you describe how I also take someone back to the beginning of trauma and reframes it, rewires it. So there’s a new synapse. So, that person no longer heats up to keep operating from that place of trauma and there are things. That’s what so many healers do through regression therapy, through cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, through the shamanic work that we’ve learned through Wendy. It’s interesting to see the parallels in that. But I feel like this trauma healing is getting us all back there. It’s like peeling off the fill between our awareness and our true self, which is free and inherently connected and inherently belongs. And this work that many are choosing to do, and some are being pushed into doing through like healing ourselves is, is like the map there, map back to that place of belonging and, and freedom.

Leisia (00:53:53):

Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. There are so many ways to get to those, root traumas and there are so many different modalities, new modalities, ancient modalities, there’s a lot of new phenomenal research being done, in trauma and child development that is just it’s. Yeah, it’s very, I feel like our awareness is growing and our desire is growing as a global culture for sure. Part of that process, just like with any of it is the discomfort of, of sitting in it and it’s, it can be, it can feel very destructive because you kind of have to break through all the different layers to get to the source and then once you’re there, then it’s, then you can grow now. So it is uncomfortable, but it’s super effective. And, and even with this, like to your point, the mandates to be isolating to self-isolate isolation is a very shamanic and very spiritual practice.

Leisia (00:55:02):

Like, and we’re asking our entire populations to self-isolate with no spiritual or Chemonics support. That is a big undertaking. So a lot of people are facing up to a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff is coming to the surface for better or worse and it’s being supported for better or worse. And so I do feel like it’s a collective kind of somewhat forced awakening. It’s, it’s very, it’s very powerful. There’s a reason why most cultures are spiritual or shamanic, or, or not, when, when you’re, you know, some cultures, when you reach a certain age, you go off on a vision quest to find yourself it’s by yourself. And it’s, you’re alone in the wilderness. You’re, you’re, there’s a lot about being by yourself when you’ve got no distractions. That there’s a reason for that. There’s a very deep self-realizing self-actualizing reason for that is very powerful. So yeah, I do feel like we’re headed in that direction from all different angles,

Abby (00:56:08):

All ankles. Yeah. All the angles that are needed. And, yeah, it’s, it’s that Rite of passage that so many, so many cultures and tribal cultures and different cultures have of that growing up and, you know, becoming an adult, becoming a new title, becoming something new, hopefully, multiple times that each of our lives, and we’re collectively going through this metamorphosis. And what we’ve become is up to our openness and willingness to look at ourselves as well. I feel this is the support that we get. However, that support looks to have a guide walking you through the darkness. I was like, oh yeah, I’ve been there. I know that feeling. It’ll be okay. You just have to go on and continue unpacking this stuff.

Leisia (00:56:59):

Absolutely. And you know, we’ve seen in the last few years, an explosion in coaching, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I don’t feel that’s a coincidence at all. And people are seeing the necessity of having someone who can be a sounding board for them and can help them navigate whatever expression it’s going to take.

Abby (00:57:21):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Abby (00:57:23):

And everyone needs it differently. Everyone thinks and looks and responds differently. And I love the way that you use the term destructive as waste. Now, if we’re thinking in architecture and then just now it’s an ultimately productive process he constructs so that you can reconstruct.

Leisia (00:57:45):

Hm. Yeah. And there’s nowhere on earth that I’ve seen that more vividly than in the jungle. The jungle is such intense energy and the life-death cycle is so fast and in your face. And so like, there’s just so much life condensed into the rainforest. Like it’s, everything is alive and moving and eating something and like re having to lay eggs. And then it’s just like, it’s just life, death, life, death, life-death. It’s amazing. Like, like the best example I could give is, you know, how, when you’re growing up, I don’t know if your mom said this. I feel like most people’s moms were like, don’t leave, crumbs out. The bugs are going to get bugs in the house. And it’s kind of anecdotal in Canada. Well, the jungle, it’s not anecdotal. If you don’t have a surface, you’re going to get either tiny little spiders or like tiny little ants or cockroaches, like something’s going to come and eat it. You know, like within minutes within minutes and it’ll be gone. Like there was no trace of what was on the counter. No trace of the heads,

Abby (00:58:48):

Army of creatures within a few minutes of leaving it. Yeah. Yeah.

Leisia (00:58:52):

I mean, living in the jungle, I know there were a few times where he’d have something show up kind of dead and I’d never move it. I would just leave it and it would be gone and the jungle would re-consume it and, you know, go, yeah. I remember stepping out of my door once and being like, how come there’s a plastic bag hanging from my porch. And then I looked at it closer and it was this big, long snakeskin hanging from my porch.

Abby (00:59:22):

Oh, never mind. I’m in a different world. Yeah. The energy is so cold compared to Canada where I’m right now going into winter, it’s cold. It becomes very quiet, very subdued. I enjoy it as a way of self-reflection as a kind of data and a little way. And in the jungle, it is so alive and the vibration and the buzz are so strong. It’s so intense. And it takes time to adjust to that, to adjust to that vibration. Or you, you were just a part of it and you can’t be, you can’t just hide inside with your sweater and cup of tea and be comfortable. You accept what you’re in and allow yourself to be a part of it.

Leisia (01:00:10):

Yeah. Yep. That’s and it’s cool. Like, you know, on, on the Pacific coast, we’re still in a rainforest, it’s just a temperate rainforest and you feel slow like it’s a dial back a bit is not, there’s not the intensity. There’s not the tropical heat, the torrential rains like there are heavy rains here, but it’s, it kinda just drizzles buckets. It doesn’t just pelt down all the time. So it’s just, it’s different, it’s still intense, but it’s like a more drawn-out intense. There’s still power, but it’s kind of slower, bigger, steady, or power.

Abby (01:00:51):

Yeah. It’s like the sweet spot between the two.

Leisia (01:00:55):

I love the Pacific Northwest. Beautiful

Abby (01:00:59):

There. It’s very special. Yeah. So I want to ask you too, about what they call the Ikaros. So that’s the music, the song that the Shama and that the iOS girl is saying is when working with the medicine, how does that work?

Leisia (01:01:17):

So for the Shapebos, culturally, they don’t see a difference between sight and sound. They experience it simultaneously, and you get to experience this. You may experience this when you ever work with Ayahuasca, where you will start to see. I can’t think of the term. Certain people think, as the sounds will start and they’ll see colors flash. And I can’t think of the term for it, but they experienced that as well. And so what they see is that life is vibration and it can be an auditory vibration or a visual vibration. And we are vibrating beings. And when you’re in the medicine, they see our vibration and they see areas where energy isn’t flowing and it’s bound up or areas where we have a lack of energy and it’s kind of an open hole. So to speak, if you can picture a sweater.

Leisia (01:02:18):

So you’re like a whole bunch of stitching stuck here, and then a big hole here and through the [inaudible] and the medicine songs through the vibration of the sound, they help pull out and tease out where the energy is all knotted up and it creates a pattern of vibration and they fill in or stitch together the areas where there’s a lack of, of, of energy. And again, continue. So they see us as vibrating patterns and the songs and the egos that they sing with Ayahuasca and in the ceremony are vibrations that help, yeah. Fix our vibrations, get our vibration all kind of more even, and I’m flowing. Yeah. And they’re very powerful. Absolutely.

Abby (01:03:08):

Yeah. We’ve, we’ve each felt that it’s visceral, you know, common singing to you, very strong, usually leads to, can lead to tears or laughter or, insights, all kinds of things.

Leisia (01:03:24):

Yeah. Sometimes it’s beautiful. Sometimes you just want to run away cause it’s just like stop it’s too many events. Yeah. There’s that , yeah. It’s a really important part of their ceremony. And one of the things that I love that’s happening in the jungle right now is, there’s a center called the Rio SPO center and they’re doing research with universities and they’re doing research with plant medicines. But the kicker for me that I think is valuable, that isn’t being seen is they’re doing their research in conjunction with the ceremonial setting. And they’re talking about, and looking at the effectiveness and the importance and the importance of the ceremony and the sacred set and setting for healing. And through all of my experiences of sitting with the medicine, that’s one piece that I feel can’t be stressed enough is the set and setting, because it is such a potential, it’s a very vulnerable process. And it’s potentially so destructive that if, you want to make sure that you’re sitting in a very trusted, safe in, in, in its integrity set and setting to hold that space for you to go to those deep places, to be able to surface all of those very, entrenched traumas to get that energy moving. And, you must have somebody there to hold space so that that energy can shift. Absolutely. And the egos are a big part of that, for sure. Yeah.

Abby (01:05:08):

It’s like building a relationship with the plant-like you said, and you don’t take your powerful guru teacher and healer to the nightclub to learn some are sacred, some quieter, some safer. Yeah. Well, that’s funny. That’s how most of us introduce it or not, I shouldn’t say most of us. That is how I was first introduced to plant medicines with mushrooms when I was younger and it was in the party scene and it was beautiful. But, I hadn’t tapped into the potential that it has when taken in with a sense of respect and even reverence and intention.

Leisia (01:05:55):

Yeah. And if I could add to that, actually we did have a DJ come to the jungle. I like the DJ and his music. He talks about how music is very influential. And when you’ve got a crowd going the energy guilds in the crowd, and he talked about, actually, we had a few people come through the jungle who were involved in music or light lighting, which was interesting, interesting. And they would use the lighting in their music and create a certain atmosphere where they would say they had X, they would push the energy of the crowd, and people would have these moments of epiphany or revelation or shift in there, in themselves, through the music, a different experience. It’s very, it’s, it hits kind of a different place than sitting with a shaman with plant medicine. This is, you know, typically being used with things like MVMA and stuff in, in that sense. However, some people go and there are collective groups that go with the intention of that and have that love and that intention of like a collective building of energy building of love and, and, and breakthrough. So that was really, I never really thought of it that way before. And that was cool to hear, but a very different way about approaching that. Yeah. And it’s,

Abby (01:07:23):

It’s our cultures, our, our causes this, this Western modernized culture’s way of working with rhythm and movement and sound too, do what we did, what we’ve done for so long and tribal cultures would, you know, like dancing around a fire to a certain motion and movement and rhythm and chanting that would induce these trans states and create healing and breakthroughs and, and release, blocks for people. And we’re still intuitively finding ways of doing that.

Leisia (01:08:01):

Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, just a, it is a very different way, a very different

Abby (01:08:07):

Way. Yeah. Very different setting. When I club versus Ayahuasca. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful healing in their ways, but not together.

Leisia (01:08:20):

Yeah. That wouldn’t be something that I would hurry up to experience.

Abby (01:08:25):

All right. So, it grows. And so, you were taught that it grows in your training, is that right? Yeah, certainly girls’ songs.

Leisia (01:08:34):

Yeah. We were, we were studying it on Enrique and that was a part of the time it was all these plant medicines, but it also felt like music camp. Cause there was, you’re singing all the time and you’re learning the medicine songs and you’re also, sometimes you’re inspired and a new melody comes. So you’re taught that an eco with a melody and sometimes you end up with your melody. And so, but you’re singing constantly and you’re just you’re and that’s building and shifting energy as well, constantly. So yeah, it was, it was fun. It was like, I didn’t know that studying shamanism was like just music all the time.

Leisia (01:09:14):

Who knew to be the spot.

Leisia (01:09:16):

Yeah. This is awesome. It’s very,

Abby (01:09:20):

Very essential. You’re not reading out of a textbook you’re doing

Leisia (01:09:23):

It. Yep. Yeah. And you’re feeling it and you’re just you’re. Yeah. And it’s either just on your one-on-one or sometimes, you know, and you’d sit down and, and, and, and sing together. And that was, that was very beautiful. Mm, absolutely. I can imagine.

Abby (01:09:41):

And so I’ve heard you saying different medicine songs, and I think that it’s so beautiful and so powerful and I feel the energy moving and I feel tears releasing and this getting, you know, the clarity and the insights and the healing. That reminds me of the jungle and Peru and Ayahuasca. And last time you sang I felt like I was like, the plants were right there. They’re right back here. And it was such a treat to feel that and to remember that, and it’s like, they’re not that far away. They’re right here. I’m so grateful for that. Thank you, me too. Thank you. So how would you feel about singing on Ikaros today? Sure.

Leisia (01:10:30):

I’d love to share it with any girl. I’ll just, I tend to close my eyes before I sing to any girl. Cause I was taught to see me grow as I was your kind of cue up and connect with the plants. I’m just going to take a moment.

Abby (01:10:47):

Yeah. No one will see you. The audience makes all the faces you want and takes as much time as you like. All right.

Leisia (01:10:59):


Leisia (01:11:37):


Leisia (01:17:20):

Thank you. Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, that certainly brings the jungle right in close.

Abby (01:17:30):

Absolutely. Like being in a ceremony again.

Abby (01:17:33):

Oh yeah.

Abby (01:17:37):

What does that feel like for you to sing it? Oh, man. singing

Leisia (01:17:43):

The ceremony is my favorite thing ever. I love it. I love the feel of the energy. It just, it doesn’t even feel like I’m singing. It feels like I’m just open and experiencing my body singing. And to sing, I’m just very grateful to have the Ikaros and I love just really diving in and sinking into them and playing with them and just hearing how they’re coming through. It’s been a journey too. At first, it was a lot about really spending energy and time thinking about how it sounds. And now it’s a lot more just being open and allowing it to just be in flow-through in that. Yeah. That’s yeah. It just feels great. It was great to receive it. Yeah.

Abby (01:18:36):

I get it. When you’re singing. I could feel, I imagine everyone who’s listening to this, getting to receive it in their way and just the healing energy that kind of weaves all over. Thank you.

Leisia (01:18:49):

Thank you. Yeah, it’s definitely, those are beautiful powerful songs. The second one is a beautiful blessing and medicinal acro. it’s done in your case, family acre row and, it’s absolutely, it’s powerful. It’s a visceral one to sing for me and it’s very, very powerful. I hope it does offer people that, that moment of, I don’t know, ease, love, joy

Abby (01:19:19):

Healing. I feel like it’ll give them whatever they need at that moment. Yeah.

Abby (01:19:27):

Oh, it has been such a pleasure. How thank you and how can people, people want to work with you, how can they best reach out to you?

Leisia (01:19:40):

The best way to reach out to me is either on Facebook, at Leisia Shopik that’s my profile on Facebook, or by email, which is

Abby (01:20:03):

Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. Yeah.

Abby (01:20:06):

And it’s been such a treat too, cause I met you in Peru. I don’t know how many years ago it was four or five years ago. The numbers keep going up because that’s good. That’s how time works. It feels like forever, but also yesterday. Yeah. And so it’s been a real treat to go on a kind of similar journey and watch you grow and while I grow, so thank you on the path.

Leisia (01:20:34):

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been phenomenal. It’s been amazing to share this journey with you and to, and I say share just because you’re a constant source of inspiration watching you move and be inspired and just you’re, you’re very daring and you’re very, action-oriented. And the practice that you have is inspiring. Your sessions are very, very powerful and very valuable. Thank you.

Abby (01:21:02):

You too. Yeah. That’s the beauty of getting to have healer friends like, Hey, help. Yeah. I guess just in general, it’d be able to say help. It’s a great thing to ask and receive help. Yeah. Thank you for all the help that you’ve given me, which has been a lot, and, yeah, everyone has their gifts and yours are beautiful and many, and thank you for sharing them with the world.

Leisia (01:21:31):

Hmm. Thank you so much. This has been phenomenal and likewise, it’s, yeah. It’s like, I’m excited to see how it all unfolds and where it all goes. It’s been such a phenomenal journey thus far it’s and it just keeps getting better and better.

Abby (01:21:45):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And,

Abby (01:21:47):

Thank you to everyone listening and yeah. Reach out to Leisia. She’s a wonderful healer, iOS Garah, and singer. Yeah, thanks so much, everyone.

Abby (01:22:08):

Thanks for listening to the mindbodyfree podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did leave us a review and subscribe, so you can stay up to date with future episodes and you can learn more at mind, body I’m your host Abigail Moss, and I’ll see you next time.